Announcing bobo

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Announcing bobo

Jim Fulton
Bobo is a light-weight framework for creating WSGI web applications.

It's goal is to be easy to use and remember. You don't have to be a  
genius.

It addresses 2 problems:

- Mapping URLs to objects

- Calling objects to generate HTTP responses

Bobo doesn't have a templateing language, a database integration layer,
or a number of other features that can be provided by WSGI
middle-ware or application-specific libraries.

Bobo builds on other frameworks, most notably WSGI and WebOb.

To learn more. visit: http://bobo.digicool.com

Jim

--
Jim Fulton
Zope Corporation


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Re: Announcing bobo

Etienne Robillard-3

Nothing very new here. At least next time try to be a little more
creative, otherwise this is getting slightly boring and repetitive...

Regards,

-- Etienne

Jim Fulton wrote:

> Bobo is a light-weight framework for creating WSGI web applications.
>
> It's goal is to be easy to use and remember. You don't have to be a genius.
>
> It addresses 2 problems:
>
> - Mapping URLs to objects
>
> - Calling objects to generate HTTP responses
>
> Bobo doesn't have a templateing language, a database integration layer,
> or a number of other features that can be provided by WSGI
> middle-ware or application-specific libraries.
>
> Bobo builds on other frameworks, most notably WSGI and WebOb.
>
> To learn more. visit: http://bobo.digicool.com
>
> Jim
>
> --
> Jim Fulton
> Zope Corporation


--
Etienne Robillard <[hidden email]>
Green Tea Hackers Club <http://gthc.org/>
Blog: <http://gthc.org/blog/>
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"L'imagination est plus importante que le savoir"

-- Albert Einstein
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Re: Announcing bobo

Sergey Schetinin
On 2009-06-16, Etienne Robillard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  Nothing very new here. At least next time try to be a little more
>  creative, otherwise this is getting slightly boring and repetitive...
>

I think that's a bit rough, but indeed there are quite a few
frameworks / components that do this thing and I kind of don't get why
people want to write their apps that way. I wonder if Jim or anyone
else could explain the rationale behind all these URL routing
libraries. Nobody minds calling functions from other functions --
that's basics of programming, but for some reason URL dispatching is
seen as something different. Why?

This is not a criticism, I just really would like to understand this.

-Sergey
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Re: Announcing bobo

Martijn Faassen-2
In reply to this post by Etienne Robillard-3
Hey,

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Etienne
Robillard<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Nothing very new here. At least next time try to be a little more
> creative, otherwise this is getting slightly boring and repetitive...

It's a bit rich to call Jim Fulton uncreative concerning web
development. I suggest you delve into the history of Python web
development for a bit. Of course back in '97 there was more to invent
than there is today.

Regards,

Martijn
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Re: Announcing bobo

PJ Eby
At 05:19 PM 6/16/2009 +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote:

>Hey,
>
>On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Etienne
>Robillard<[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Nothing very new here. At least next time try to be a little more
> > creative, otherwise this is getting slightly boring and repetitive...
>
>It's a bit rich to call Jim Fulton uncreative concerning web
>development. I suggest you delve into the history of Python web
>development for a bit. Of course back in '97 there was more to invent
>than there is today.

Surely Etienne is joking, since anybody who knows Python web
development should know that Bobo was actually the first Python web
framework ever developed, 12 years ago, and that it invented quite a
lot of the things found in Python web frameworks today, not to
mention being the forerunner of all things Zope.

It's rather nice to see it back, reincarnated on today's egg/WSGI
infrastructure.  The original Bobo was what convinced me to become a
Python programmer 12 years ago. (...after I realized that a
Bobo-equivalent framework could not be implemented in Perl without
far greater wizardry than I was capable of managing, while in Python
it was nearly trivial to do so.  I left Perl and never looked back.)

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Re: Announcing bobo

Etienne Robillard-3
In reply to this post by Martijn Faassen-2

Martin,

I don't care about '97, pretty much.

I think that if this Jim guy has lots of experience then at least he
could not pretend that other people works are made by/for geniuses,
which is probably untrue anyway.

There's other ways to advertise a open source project. One method
is to discriminate other projects, thus making it's own work appears
better in some ways or another. Of courses this has nothing to do in
being a genius.. You don't have to be a genius to copy-and-paste things.

regards,

Etienne


Martijn Faassen wrote:

> Hey,
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Etienne
> Robillard<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Nothing very new here. At least next time try to be a little more
>> creative, otherwise this is getting slightly boring and repetitive...
>
> It's a bit rich to call Jim Fulton uncreative concerning web
> development. I suggest you delve into the history of Python web
> development for a bit. Of course back in '97 there was more to invent
> than there is today.
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn
>


--
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Blog: <http://gthc.org/blog/>
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Re: Announcing bobo

Aaron Watters-2
In reply to this post by Jim Fulton


> Nobody minds calling functions from other
> functions --
> that's basics of programming, but for some reason URL
> dispatching is
> seen as something different. Why?

I don't know, but every time I see a strange
data structure with regular expressions in it that
is supposed to define my web application URL structure,
my skin crawls.

I think the simplicity of FILE_PATH==URL is one
of the main reasons for the popularity of PHP --
other than that I can't think of any excuse for PHP.
If python had a framework that had a simple and
straightforward organization 5 to 10 years ago I don't
think either PHP or Ruby/Rails would have ever evolved.

BTW, this was one of the primary reasons I created
WHIFF -- I wanted a structure where I just dropped
files into a directory and they were automatically
treated as applications or middlewares with an
URL derived from the file path with associated services
which could be combined in a natural fashion...
There wasn't anything like that available, so I had
to create it.

   -- Aaron Watters

===
http://aaron.oirt.rutgers.edu/myapp/amcharts/doc
http://aaron.oirt.rutgers.edu/myapp/docs/W1500.whyIsWhiffCool
less is more.

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Re: Announcing bobo

Martijn Faassen-2
In reply to this post by Etienne Robillard-3
Hey,

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Etienne
Robillard<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't care about '97, pretty much.

Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it. :)

> I think that if this Jim guy has lots of experience then at least he
> could not pretend that other people works are made by/for geniuses,
> which is probably untrue anyway. There's other ways to advertise a open source project

I think you misread him. He said it the goal is for it to be simple,
he didn't say other people's works are complicated. Besides; I think
Jim would be the first to admit that some of his other works are
actually a bit harder to understand for other people. Zope 2 and Zope
3, which Jim both designed, are considered by many to be more than a
little bit intimidating.

> One method
> is to discriminate other projects, thus making it's own work appears
> better in some ways or another. Of courses this has nothing to do in
> being a genius.. You don't have to be a genius to copy-and-paste things.

You're reading things that Jim didn't write anywhere as far as I know.
He doesn't compare Bobo with anything else. He just states what the
goal is. What he does say is that he built Bobo on other people's
work, giving it credit.

Regards,

Martijn
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Re: Announcing bobo

Nathan R. Yergler-4
In reply to this post by Etienne Robillard-3
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Etienne
Robillard<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Martin,
>
> I don't care about '97, pretty much.
>
> I think that if this Jim guy has lots of experience then at least he
> could not pretend that other people works are made by/for geniuses,
> which is probably untrue anyway.

How do you know that Jim believes this? I don't see anything in his
initial announcement (or in skimming the documentation) that implies
you should choose Bobo over any other framework.

>
> There's other ways to advertise a open source project. One method
> is to discriminate other projects, thus making it's own work appears
> better in some ways or another. Of courses this has nothing to do in
> being a genius.. You don't have to be a genius to copy-and-paste things.
>

Again, this seems to be a stretch.  Jim simply sent a message letting
people know about Bobo.  I for one appreciate that, as it's useful for
me to have different tools in my toolkit for approaching different
problems.  Bobo may share features (or non-features) with other
frameworks (web.py comes to mind) but that doesn't mean it's "copy and
paste".

This feels like an ad hominem argument which is both surprising and
unproductive.

Nathan


> regards,
>
> Etienne
>
>
> Martijn Faassen wrote:
>> Hey,
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Etienne
>> Robillard<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Nothing very new here. At least next time try to be a little more
>>> creative, otherwise this is getting slightly boring and repetitive...
>>
>> It's a bit rich to call Jim Fulton uncreative concerning web
>> development. I suggest you delve into the history of Python web
>> development for a bit. Of course back in '97 there was more to invent
>> than there is today.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Martijn
>>
>
>
> --
> Etienne Robillard <[hidden email]>
> Green Tea Hackers Club <http://gthc.org/>
> Blog: <http://gthc.org/blog/>
> PGP Fingerprint: AED6 B33B B41D 5F4F A92A  2B71 874C FB27 F3A9 BDCC
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: Announcing bobo

Duncan McGreggor
In reply to this post by Jim Fulton
Jim Fulton wrote:

> Bobo is a light-weight framework for creating WSGI web applications.
>
> It's goal is to be easy to use and remember. You don't have to be a genius.
>
> It addresses 2 problems:
>
> - Mapping URLs to objects
>
> - Calling objects to generate HTTP responses
>
> Bobo doesn't have a templateing language, a database integration layer,
> or a number of other features that can be provided by WSGI
> middle-ware or application-specific libraries.
>
> Bobo builds on other frameworks, most notably WSGI and WebOb.
>
> To learn more. visit: http://bobo.digicool.com
>
> Jim
>
> --
> Jim Fulton
> Zope Corporation

Thanks Jim!

d
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Re: Announcing bobo

Martijn Faassen-2
In reply to this post by Aaron Watters-2
Hey,

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Aaron Watters<[hidden email]> wrote:
[snip]
> If python had a framework that had a simple and
> straightforward organization 5 to 10 years ago I don't
> think either PHP or Ruby/Rails would have ever evolved.

5 years ago would've been far too late for PHP. Even 10 years ago; PHP
has been around since '95 and I think was fairly popular quite soon.
Even Rails goes back to '04 - not sure when it got really popular.

(anyway, I know you were around back then and before me, I just like history)

In general, I don't think there's anything that could stop people from
creating their own new web frameworks. :) At best we can aim to reuse
bits and pieces and work towards making that easier.

Regards,

Martijn
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Re: Announcing bobo

Senthil Kumaran-6
In reply to this post by Jim Fulton
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:15:29PM -0400, Etienne Robillard wrote:
> I think that if this Jim guy has lots of experience then at least he
> could not pretend that other people works are made by/for geniuses,
> which is probably untrue anyway.

Hey, I don't understand why are being so negative with your comments.
Does not sound good. I surely dont know what your contributions are,
but I do know what Jim Fulton's contributions are.


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Re: Announcing bobo

Etienne Robillard-3

Hey, don't you people know that you could use a more polite word
than "Hey" to salute people ?

I'm just telling my own views. If you disagree then please say something
more meaningful than this. Who cares what you know.


Senthil Kumaran wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:15:29PM -0400, Etienne Robillard wrote:
>> I think that if this Jim guy has lots of experience then at least he
>> could not pretend that other people works are made by/for geniuses,
>> which is probably untrue anyway.
>
> Hey, I don't understand why are being so negative with your comments.
> Does not sound good. I surely dont know what your contributions are,
> but I do know what Jim Fulton's contributions are.
>
>


--
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Blog: <http://gthc.org/blog/>
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Re: Announcing bobo

Etienne Robillard-3
In reply to this post by Nathan R. Yergler-4

I recommend you quit using latin to try looking smarter. ;)

I do I'm discouraged to see so much adversion between Python web
frameworks fighting for the same goal.

To say that "you don't to be a genius" implies that all other web
frameworks are made for geniuses, which is probably offending for
less-mature projects. Of courses I might have misread or taking for
granted that this was a totally new project..

My apologies then to Jim... ;)

Regards,

Etienne

> This feels like an ad hominem argument which is both surprising and
> unproductive.
>
> Nathan



>
>> regards,
>>
>> Etienne
>>
>>
>> Martijn Faassen wrote:
>>> Hey,
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Etienne
>>> Robillard<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Nothing very new here. At least next time try to be a little more
>>>> creative, otherwise this is getting slightly boring and repetitive...
>>> It's a bit rich to call Jim Fulton uncreative concerning web
>>> development. I suggest you delve into the history of Python web
>>> development for a bit. Of course back in '97 there was more to invent
>>> than there is today.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Martijn
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Etienne Robillard <[hidden email]>
>> Green Tea Hackers Club <http://gthc.org/>
>> Blog: <http://gthc.org/blog/>
>> PGP Fingerprint: AED6 B33B B41D 5F4F A92A  2B71 874C FB27 F3A9 BDCC
>> _______________________________________________
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>> [hidden email]
>> Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig
>> Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/nathan%40yergler.net
>>
>


--
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Green Tea Hackers Club <http://gthc.org/>
Blog: <http://gthc.org/blog/>
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Re: Announcing bobo

Senthil Kumaran-6
In reply to this post by Etienne Robillard-3
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:51:48PM -0400, Etienne Robillard wrote:
> Hey, don't you people know that you could use a more polite word
> than "Hey" to salute people ?
>
> I'm just telling my own views. If you disagree then please say something
> more meaningful than this. Who cares what you know.

Sorry for that. I wrote that immediately after reading your response.

Others have responded more appropriately.

Thank you,
Senthil
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Re: Announcing bobo

C. Titus Brown-2
In reply to this post by Etienne Robillard-3
Hey all,

I think we can pretty safely ignore Etienne as either a troll or an
unnecessarily rude person.

Has anyone looked at Bobo yet?  I'd be interested in comparisons between
it and Quixote, which is what I've mostly used in the past.  I believe
that Bobo begat Zope, which begat Quixote as (I thought) an attempt to
return to Bobo-style programming, and so I'm curious about what sort of
choices Bobo has made.

thanks,
--titus
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Re: Announcing bobo

Jason R Briggs-3
In reply to this post by Jim Fulton
Typical. The first time I make the effort to reply to the list, I reply to sender rather than to list.  I'm a muppet.

Anyway, reply below....


Begin forwarded message:

From: Jason Briggs <[hidden email]>
Date: 16 June 2009 20:04:46 BST
To: Etienne Robillard <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo

"Ad hominen" isn't using latin to look smart.  It's a common-term description of a type of argument... which just happens to be latin.

You probably already knew that, but based on your previous emails I wasn't sure -- so just for your info.

J



On 16 Jun 2009, at 18:38, Etienne Robillard wrote:


I recommend you quit using latin to try looking smarter. ;)

I do I'm discouraged to see so much adversion between Python web
frameworks fighting for the same goal.

To say that "you don't to be a genius" implies that all other web
frameworks are made for geniuses, which is probably offending for
less-mature projects. Of courses I might have misread or taking for
granted that this was a totally new project..

My apologies then to Jim... ;)

Regards,

Etienne

This feels like an ad hominem argument which is both surprising and
unproductive.

Nathan





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Re: Announcing bobo

Jason R Briggs
In reply to this post by Jim Fulton
Typical. The first time I make the effort to reply to the list, I reply-to-sender rather than to-list.  I'm a muppet.

Anyway, reply below....




Begin forwarded message:

From: Jason Briggs <[hidden email]>
Date: 16 June 2009 20:04:46 BST
To: Etienne Robillard <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo

"Ad hominen" isn't using latin to look smart.  It's a common-term description of a type of argument... which just happens to be latin.

You probably already knew that, but based on your previous emails I wasn't sure -- so just for your info.

J



On 16 Jun 2009, at 18:38, Etienne Robillard wrote:


I recommend you quit using latin to try looking smarter. ;)

I do I'm discouraged to see so much adversion between Python web
frameworks fighting for the same goal.

To say that "you don't to be a genius" implies that all other web
frameworks are made for geniuses, which is probably offending for
less-mature projects. Of courses I might have misread or taking for
granted that this was a totally new project..

My apologies then to Jim... ;)

Regards,

Etienne

This feels like an ad hominem argument which is both surprising and
unproductive.

Nathan





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Re: Announcing bobo

Etienne Robillard-3
In reply to this post by C. Titus Brown-2

Pfft, I bet this thread would have never happened without my initial
intervention. Likewise, I think you're just using this thread for your
own interests, disregarding my own arguments on why web frameworks are
so hard to cope with.

If you want to start a thread for Bobo, please switch mailing-list or
create a new thread, as all I wanted was to tell Jim my disappointement
regarding Bobo, and I still think its not very revolutionary.

Regards,

Etienne

C. Titus Brown wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I think we can pretty safely ignore Etienne as either a troll or an
> unnecessarily rude person.
>
> Has anyone looked at Bobo yet?  I'd be interested in comparisons between
> it and Quixote, which is what I've mostly used in the past.  I believe
> that Bobo begat Zope, which begat Quixote as (I thought) an attempt to
> return to Bobo-style programming, and so I'm curious about what sort of
> choices Bobo has made.
>
> thanks,
> --titus


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Re: Announcing bobo

David Stanek
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Etienne
Robillard<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If you want to start a thread for Bobo, please switch mailing-list or
> create a new thread, as all I wanted was to tell Jim my disappointement
> regarding Bobo, and I still think its not very revolutionary.
>

Depends on what you mean by revolutionary. I am in the framework
hating camp. This back to basics style framework is what I like to
see. Frameworks like Django, TurboGears and Zope just don't allow me
to do what I want.


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