Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

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Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Meet Bhagdev

Hi Django Committers,

 

My name is Meet Bhagdev, I work in the Database Systems engineering team at Microsoft in Seattle, WA. My focus is the APIs used to connect to and use Azure SQL Database and SQL Server (MSSQL). Example APIs are ODBC, JDBC, ADO.NET, etc.

 

We’d love for Django users to have a solid option to use MSSQL and Azure SQL if they wish, and it would be great to make this option a reality. Our goal is to partner with committers like yourself to bring first-class support for MSSQL to Django. We want to bring the benefits of Django to millions of existing MSSQL and Azure SQL customers as well as folks that would like to evaluate us as a database option for Django.

 

I have been in touch with Tim Graham and Russell Keith-Magee related to us building such support. We are prepared to make the engineering investment required on our end and to work with the Django community to make this happen, the right way. We are willing to do all the heavy lifting, but we do need your help and guidance.

 

At Microsoft we have an existing program for bringing partners and eco-system developers to Seattle, WA, all expenses paid, and we’d like to extend this to the Django committers. This would be a great way to get started. We would love to get a group of you here during our October workshop. The idea is to get developers from both sides to meet and learn from each other—Django and Microsoft.

 

Please reach out me at [hidden email] or give me a call on +1 425 722 5342 if you would like to attend. Would love to get you more details.

 

Sincerely,

Meet Bhagdev | Linkedin | Github

 

P.S. This is not a sales pitch; we are excited about bringing the benefits of Django to our customers.:)

 

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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Aymeric Augustin
Hello Meet,

On 21 août 2015, at 19:39, Meet Bhagdev <[hidden email]> wrote:
  
We’d love for Django users to have a solid option to use MSSQL and Azure SQL if they wish, and it would be great to make this option a reality.

Even though this isn’t what you’re asking for :-) I’ll take this opportunity to summarize the landscape for combining Django and MSSQL / Azure SQL, as far as I understand it.

There’s a good option for MSSQL or Azure SQL users running Django on Windows: https://bitbucket.org/Manfre/django-mssql. (Perhaps it could be made even better, but from my perspective, it’s solid.)

There’ve been talks of making it more official. But no consensus has been found yet. The main difficulty is that very few Django committers use Windows as a primary OS, perhaps two out of fifty. Most of us don’t even own a Windows license. We face a similar issue with our continuous integration. Currently it’s running on Linux. We lack the skills and money to run Windows and SQL Server. (Sponsoring in the form of Azure SQL credits for the purpose of testing Django may solve parts of this problem, if using a remote database isn’t too slow for test suite’s workload.)

There isn’t such a clear story for running Django on Linux. This led me to write https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql. Alternatives include https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver and https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc.

I can’t say django-pymssql is solid. But it works and it shows that django-mssql could be made cross-platform with limited effort, subject to the quality of the underlying libraries: https://github.com/pymssql/pymssql and https://github.com/FreeTDS/freetds. However my interest has faded since I left the company where I had this use case. Furthermore testing is very painful. I'm running SQL Server Express in a VM. Tests are about 20 times slower than with PostgreSQL or MySQL. As a consequence Django’s test suite took about 2 hours. 

I appreciate the invitation. Unfortunately I live a bit too far to make the trip conveniently. I’m still interested in making Django work out of the box with SQL Server like it does with Oracle. (That’s for historical reasons: some people gathered and made it happen). I believe interoperability with SQL Server is key for using Django in the medium-sized companies where SQL Server is the obvious choice of database server.

I hope this helps. Thanks for reaching out!

-- 
Aymeric.

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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Tim Graham-2
I agree it would be great to get some help running the Django tests on Windows. I run them in a local virtual machine every so often, but I would love to be able to delegate fixing Windows issues. Meet, can your team provide ongoing help with fixing Windows-specific issues in Django, even if they aren't related to MSSQL/Azure? That is something where we've had a hard time finding volunteers to help with and is obviously important if we want to claim 1st-class support for Windows.

I don't have any experience with MSSQL/Azure, but I could probably attend the October 13-15 event at Microsoft if you think my participation would be valuable and if the DSF were to approve the time commitment as part of the fellow duties.

On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 6:28:58 AM UTC-4, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
Hello Meet,

On 21 août 2015, at 19:39, Meet Bhagdev <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="n-WccpW2DgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">meetb...@...> wrote:
  
We’d love for Django users to have a solid option to use MSSQL and Azure SQL if they wish, and it would be great to make this option a reality.

Even though this isn’t what you’re asking for :-) I’ll take this opportunity to summarize the landscape for combining Django and MSSQL / Azure SQL, as far as I understand it.

There’s a good option for MSSQL or Azure SQL users running Django on Windows: <a href="https://bitbucket.org/Manfre/django-mssql" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2FManfre%2Fdjango-mssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGXDaINzL2l2btWO8n_-_zd_HO-dw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2FManfre%2Fdjango-mssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGXDaINzL2l2btWO8n_-_zd_HO-dw&#39;;return true;">https://bitbucket.org/Manfre/django-mssql. (Perhaps it could be made even better, but from my perspective, it’s solid.)

There’ve been talks of making it more official. But no consensus has been found yet. The main difficulty is that very few Django committers use Windows as a primary OS, perhaps two out of fifty. Most of us don’t even own a Windows license. We face a similar issue with our continuous integration. Currently it’s running on Linux. We lack the skills and money to run Windows and SQL Server. (Sponsoring in the form of Azure SQL credits for the purpose of testing Django may solve parts of this problem, if using a remote database isn’t too slow for test suite’s workload.)

There isn’t such a clear story for running Django on Linux. This led me to write <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql. Alternatives include <a href="https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver and <a href="https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc.

I can’t say django-pymssql is solid. But it works and it shows that django-mssql could be made cross-platform with limited effort, subject to the quality of the underlying libraries: <a href="https://github.com/pymssql/pymssql" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fpymssql%2Fpymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG2y6QrVS3kkwHPLORNy9HjCp5NLA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fpymssql%2Fpymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG2y6QrVS3kkwHPLORNy9HjCp5NLA&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/pymssql/pymssql and <a href="https://github.com/FreeTDS/freetds" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FFreeTDS%2Ffreetds\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEbf8senUayeQxQVlSDqaWoNTsj_w&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FFreeTDS%2Ffreetds\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEbf8senUayeQxQVlSDqaWoNTsj_w&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/FreeTDS/freetds. However my interest has faded since I left the company where I had this use case. Furthermore testing is very painful. I'm running SQL Server Express in a VM. Tests are about 20 times slower than with PostgreSQL or MySQL. As a consequence Django’s test suite took about 2 hours. 

I appreciate the invitation. Unfortunately I live a bit too far to make the trip conveniently. I’m still interested in making Django work out of the box with SQL Server like it does with Oracle. (That’s for historical reasons: some people gathered and made it happen). I believe interoperability with SQL Server is key for using Django in the medium-sized companies where SQL Server is the obvious choice of database server.

I hope this helps. Thanks for reaching out!

-- 
Aymeric.

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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Shai Berger
In reply to this post by Aymeric Augustin

On Saturday 22 August 2015 13:28:31 Aymeric Augustin wrote:

>

> There isn’t such a clear story for running Django on Linux. This led me to

> write https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql. Alternatives include

> https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver and

> https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc.

 

There's also django-pyodbc-azure, a fork of django-pyodbc (actually, the current django-pyodbc is also a fork of the original project, which has been discontinued). I took the liberty to forward the message to that project.

 

Shai.

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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Tim Graham-2
I guess the first step is to identify which third-party backend(s) we'll target to adopt officially (or at least borrow from heavily). For example, will we need separate backends for MSSQL and Azure? (Knowing nothing about the landscape myself, this question could be nonsensical.) Is this discussion something that should happen before the October summit? It seems to me the face-to-face time will likely be more productive if we have some of the high-level details ironed out.

By the way, is videoconferencing an option for Django developers interested in participating in the discussion at that time but unable to travel to Seattle?

On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 5:53:37 PM UTC-4, Shai Berger wrote:

On Saturday 22 August 2015 13:28:31 Aymeric Augustin wrote:

>

> There isn’t such a clear story for running Django on Linux. This led me to

> write <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql. Alternatives include

> <a href="https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver and

> <a href="https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc.

 

There's also <a href="https://github.com/michiya/django-pyodbc-azure/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFSAYcIu8WB9POTo5RQQLcTzPkgDA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFSAYcIu8WB9POTo5RQQLcTzPkgDA&#39;;return true;">django-pyodbc-azure, a fork of django-pyodbc (actually, the current django-pyodbc is also a fork of the original project, which has been discontinued). I took the liberty to forward the message to that project.

 

Shai.

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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Meet Bhagdev

Absolutely agree with Tim here. We need to start exploring all the cool open sourced third party adapters. Borrowing/adopting them definitely seems like the way to go about things instead of re inventing the wheel. I tried doing some research and came across the following: 

Am I missing any? 

Best,
Meet

On Monday, August 24, 2015 at 11:12:44 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
I guess the first step is to identify which third-party backend(s) we'll target to adopt officially (or at least borrow from heavily). For example, will we need separate backends for MSSQL and Azure? (Knowing nothing about the landscape myself, this question could be nonsensical.) Is this discussion something that should happen before the October summit? It seems to me the face-to-face time will likely be more productive if we have some of the high-level details ironed out.

By the way, is videoconferencing an option for Django developers interested in participating in the discussion at that time but unable to travel to Seattle?

On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 5:53:37 PM UTC-4, Shai Berger wrote:

On Saturday 22 August 2015 13:28:31 Aymeric Augustin wrote:

>

> There isn’t such a clear story for running Django on Linux. This led me to

> write <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql. Alternatives include

> <a href="https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver and

> <a href="https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc.

 

There's also <a href="https://github.com/michiya/django-pyodbc-azure/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFSAYcIu8WB9POTo5RQQLcTzPkgDA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFSAYcIu8WB9POTo5RQQLcTzPkgDA&#39;;return true;">django-pyodbc-azure, a fork of django-pyodbc (actually, the current django-pyodbc is also a fork of the original project, which has been discontinued). I took the liberty to forward the message to that project.

 

Shai.

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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Russell Keith-Magee-4
In reply to this post by Tim Graham-2

On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Tim Graham <[hidden email]> wrote:
I agree it would be great to get some help running the Django tests on Windows. I run them in a local virtual machine every so often, but I would love to be able to delegate fixing Windows issues. Meet, can your team provide ongoing help with fixing Windows-specific issues in Django, even if they aren't related to MSSQL/Azure? That is something where we've had a hard time finding volunteers to help with and is obviously important if we want to claim 1st-class support for Windows.

I don't have any experience with MSSQL/Azure, but I could probably attend the October 13-15 event at Microsoft if you think my participation would be valuable and if the DSF were to approve the time commitment as part of the fellow duties.

I don't see why this would be a problem - I'll run it past the fellowship committee and get their OK.

Russ %-)


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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Meet Bhagdev
Thanks Russ!

On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 6:34:54 PM UTC-7, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:

On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Tim Graham <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="M1irB8PTDwAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">timog...@...> wrote:
I agree it would be great to get some help running the Django tests on Windows. I run them in a local virtual machine every so often, but I would love to be able to delegate fixing Windows issues. Meet, can your team provide ongoing help with fixing Windows-specific issues in Django, even if they aren't related to MSSQL/Azure? That is something where we've had a hard time finding volunteers to help with and is obviously important if we want to claim 1st-class support for Windows.

I don't have any experience with MSSQL/Azure, but I could probably attend the October 13-15 event at Microsoft if you think my participation would be valuable and if the DSF were to approve the time commitment as part of the fellow duties.

I don't see why this would be a problem - I'll run it past the fellowship committee and get their OK.

Russ %-)


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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Russell Keith-Magee-4
Hi Meet,

The Fellowship committee has just approved this, so go ahead and plan whatever you need to plan.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 6:21 AM, Meet Bhagdev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks Russ!

On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 6:34:54 PM UTC-7, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:

On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Tim Graham <[hidden email]> wrote:
I agree it would be great to get some help running the Django tests on Windows. I run them in a local virtual machine every so often, but I would love to be able to delegate fixing Windows issues. Meet, can your team provide ongoing help with fixing Windows-specific issues in Django, even if they aren't related to MSSQL/Azure? That is something where we've had a hard time finding volunteers to help with and is obviously important if we want to claim 1st-class support for Windows.

I don't have any experience with MSSQL/Azure, but I could probably attend the October 13-15 event at Microsoft if you think my participation would be valuable and if the DSF were to approve the time commitment as part of the fellow duties.

I don't see why this would be a problem - I'll run it past the fellowship committee and get their OK.

Russ %-)


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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Tim Graham-2
In reply to this post by Meet Bhagdev
By "we" do you mean the engineers at Microsoft who will be working on this? Will they be doing any planning for this before the meet up in October? I'd like to know more specifics about the agenda and goals for the workshop.

Also, I wanted to make sure my question about a videoconferencing option for Django developers interested in participating in the discussion at that time but unable to travel to Seattle didn't get lost.

On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 7:53:48 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:

Absolutely agree with Tim here. We need to start exploring all the cool open sourced third party adapters. Borrowing/adopting them definitely seems like the way to go about things instead of re inventing the wheel. I tried doing some research and came across the following: 

1. <a href="https://bitbucket.org/Manfre/django-mssql/src" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2FManfre%2Fdjango-mssql%2Fsrc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGjuvryAgBu02Vr-E9Esyyf3QLLjQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2FManfre%2Fdjango-mssql%2Fsrc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGjuvryAgBu02Vr-E9Esyyf3QLLjQ&#39;;return true;">Django-mssql

2. <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">Django-pymssql

3. <a href="https://github.com/michiya/django-pyodbc-azure" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEkuUHQaG2aIqmMNZhxICjUkYD3CA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEkuUHQaG2aIqmMNZhxICjUkYD3CA&#39;;return true;">Django-pyodbc-azure

4. <a href="https://github.com/avidal/django-pyodbc" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Favidal%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHfd63AEsxgN2mm5CPGpY5malAK9A&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Favidal%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHfd63AEsxgN2mm5CPGpY5malAK9A&#39;;return true;">Django-pyodbc


Am I missing any? 

Best,
Meet

On Monday, August 24, 2015 at 11:12:44 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
I guess the first step is to identify which third-party backend(s) we'll target to adopt officially (or at least borrow from heavily). For example, will we need separate backends for MSSQL and Azure? (Knowing nothing about the landscape myself, this question could be nonsensical.) Is this discussion something that should happen before the October summit? It seems to me the face-to-face time will likely be more productive if we have some of the high-level details ironed out.

By the way, is videoconferencing an option for Django developers interested in participating in the discussion at that time but unable to travel to Seattle?

On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 5:53:37 PM UTC-4, Shai Berger wrote:

On Saturday 22 August 2015 13:28:31 Aymeric Augustin wrote:

>

> There isn’t such a clear story for running Django on Linux. This led me to

> write <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql. Alternatives include

> <a href="https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver and

> <a href="https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc.

 

There's also <a href="https://github.com/michiya/django-pyodbc-azure/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFSAYcIu8WB9POTo5RQQLcTzPkgDA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFSAYcIu8WB9POTo5RQQLcTzPkgDA&#39;;return true;">django-pyodbc-azure, a fork of django-pyodbc (actually, the current django-pyodbc is also a fork of the original project, which has been discontinued). I took the liberty to forward the message to that project.

 

Shai.

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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Meet Bhagdev
Hi Tim,
Thanks for bringing it up. Yes, we will have developers who will engage with Django developers (like yourself) during the workshop. 

The goals of the October workshop are to:

1)      Get to know each other and begin building a relationship

2)      Get in a room with Microsoft developers and discuss the current landscape 

3)      Work on half day coding sprint(s) with Microsoft developers to get started with contributions

4)      Establish a plan for how Microsoft can best contribute to Django, and ensure we have great integration between Azure SQL and MSSQL and Django by maintaining our contributions


The key takeaway is that we want to contribute to existing solutions to improve the Django and MSSQL/Azure SQL story. To do so we want to understand the current landscape, the gaps, and the next steps to make this happen (the right way).


We are currently in the planning stages and would love to get feedback. What do you think about the goals mentioned above? Is there anything you like to add/remove?


We can definitely make attending via Skype an option for attendees unable to make it in person. 


Best,

Meet


On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 11:33:40 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
By "we" do you mean the engineers at Microsoft who will be working on this? Will they be doing any planning for this before the meet up in October? I'd like to know more specifics about the agenda and goals for the workshop.

Also, I wanted to make sure my question about a videoconferencing option for Django developers interested in participating in the discussion at that time but unable to travel to Seattle didn't get lost.

On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 7:53:48 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:

Absolutely agree with Tim here. We need to start exploring all the cool open sourced third party adapters. Borrowing/adopting them definitely seems like the way to go about things instead of re inventing the wheel. I tried doing some research and came across the following: 

1. <a href="https://bitbucket.org/Manfre/django-mssql/src" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2FManfre%2Fdjango-mssql%2Fsrc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGjuvryAgBu02Vr-E9Esyyf3QLLjQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2FManfre%2Fdjango-mssql%2Fsrc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGjuvryAgBu02Vr-E9Esyyf3QLLjQ&#39;;return true;">Django-mssql

2. <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">Django-pymssql

3. <a href="https://github.com/michiya/django-pyodbc-azure" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEkuUHQaG2aIqmMNZhxICjUkYD3CA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEkuUHQaG2aIqmMNZhxICjUkYD3CA&#39;;return true;">Django-pyodbc-azure

4. <a href="https://github.com/avidal/django-pyodbc" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Favidal%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHfd63AEsxgN2mm5CPGpY5malAK9A&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Favidal%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHfd63AEsxgN2mm5CPGpY5malAK9A&#39;;return true;">Django-pyodbc


Am I missing any? 

Best,
Meet

On Monday, August 24, 2015 at 11:12:44 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
I guess the first step is to identify which third-party backend(s) we'll target to adopt officially (or at least borrow from heavily). For example, will we need separate backends for MSSQL and Azure? (Knowing nothing about the landscape myself, this question could be nonsensical.) Is this discussion something that should happen before the October summit? It seems to me the face-to-face time will likely be more productive if we have some of the high-level details ironed out.

By the way, is videoconferencing an option for Django developers interested in participating in the discussion at that time but unable to travel to Seattle?

On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 5:53:37 PM UTC-4, Shai Berger wrote:

On Saturday 22 August 2015 13:28:31 Aymeric Augustin wrote:

>

> There isn’t such a clear story for running Django on Linux. This led me to

> write <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql. Alternatives include

> <a href="https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver and

> <a href="https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc.

 

There's also <a href="https://github.com/michiya/django-pyodbc-azure/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFSAYcIu8WB9POTo5RQQLcTzPkgDA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFSAYcIu8WB9POTo5RQQLcTzPkgDA&#39;;return true;">django-pyodbc-azure, a fork of django-pyodbc (actually, the current django-pyodbc is also a fork of the original project, which has been discontinued). I took the liberty to forward the message to that project.

 

Shai.

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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Tim Graham-2
To arrive at the best solution, I think a lot of discussion needs to happen on this mailing list before October. As for me, besides the name of some existing packages that offer SQL Server/Azure support, I know very little about the current landscape so I really wouldn't have anything to offer in a discussion, but there are others on this list who definitely do.

The existing Microsoft database backends have come out of specific developer needs and I think it would maximize success if your team were personally invested  in the backend by building a Django application backed by SQL Server/Azure. If I were a Microsoft engineer responsible for this project, I would start by building a small Django application to solve some problem that my team has. Then I would test it out with all the third-party backends for Microsoft databases previously mentioned to get a feel for how they work. I should learn enough to at least participate in a discussion with other Django developers about the direction of this project. Ideally, I would be able to learn enough to write up a Django Enhancement Proposal [1] that summarizes the landscape and describes what an "official solution" should look like.

If you are relying on members of the Django team to do all this upfront work, then please tell us so we can see if someone will do it. If you are expecting to get all this done in a couple days in Seattle, this doesn't seem feasible to me. However, if we have a working proposal by mid-September that the community can review and give feedback on, then I think our time together in October could be productive. I don't know anything about the background of your team, but it seems pretty unlikely that any sort of coding sprint would be useful unless the work and learning I described happens well before the workshop.

[1] https://github.com/django/deps/

On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 3:07:28 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:
Hi Tim,
Thanks for bringing it up. Yes, we will have developers who will engage with Django developers (like yourself) during the workshop. 

The goals of the October workshop are to:

1)      Get to know each other and begin building a relationship

2)      Get in a room with Microsoft developers and discuss the current landscape 

3)      Work on half day coding sprint(s) with Microsoft developers to get started with contributions

4)      Establish a plan for how Microsoft can best contribute to Django, and ensure we have great integration between Azure SQL and MSSQL and Django by maintaining our contributions


The key takeaway is that we want to contribute to existing solutions to improve the Django and MSSQL/Azure SQL story. To do so we want to understand the current landscape, the gaps, and the next steps to make this happen (the right way).


We are currently in the planning stages and would love to get feedback. What do you think about the goals mentioned above? Is there anything you like to add/remove?


We can definitely make attending via Skype an option for attendees unable to make it in person. 


Best,

Meet


On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 11:33:40 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
By "we" do you mean the engineers at Microsoft who will be working on this? Will they be doing any planning for this before the meet up in October? I'd like to know more specifics about the agenda and goals for the workshop.

Also, I wanted to make sure my question about a videoconferencing option for Django developers interested in participating in the discussion at that time but unable to travel to Seattle didn't get lost.

On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 7:53:48 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:

Absolutely agree with Tim here. We need to start exploring all the cool open sourced third party adapters. Borrowing/adopting them definitely seems like the way to go about things instead of re inventing the wheel. I tried doing some research and came across the following: 

1. <a href="https://bitbucket.org/Manfre/django-mssql/src" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2FManfre%2Fdjango-mssql%2Fsrc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGjuvryAgBu02Vr-E9Esyyf3QLLjQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2FManfre%2Fdjango-mssql%2Fsrc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGjuvryAgBu02Vr-E9Esyyf3QLLjQ&#39;;return true;">Django-mssql

2. <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">Django-pymssql

3. <a href="https://github.com/michiya/django-pyodbc-azure" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEkuUHQaG2aIqmMNZhxICjUkYD3CA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEkuUHQaG2aIqmMNZhxICjUkYD3CA&#39;;return true;">Django-pyodbc-azure

4. <a href="https://github.com/avidal/django-pyodbc" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Favidal%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHfd63AEsxgN2mm5CPGpY5malAK9A&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Favidal%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHfd63AEsxgN2mm5CPGpY5malAK9A&#39;;return true;">Django-pyodbc


Am I missing any? 

Best,
Meet

On Monday, August 24, 2015 at 11:12:44 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
I guess the first step is to identify which third-party backend(s) we'll target to adopt officially (or at least borrow from heavily). For example, will we need separate backends for MSSQL and Azure? (Knowing nothing about the landscape myself, this question could be nonsensical.) Is this discussion something that should happen before the October summit? It seems to me the face-to-face time will likely be more productive if we have some of the high-level details ironed out.

By the way, is videoconferencing an option for Django developers interested in participating in the discussion at that time but unable to travel to Seattle?

On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 5:53:37 PM UTC-4, Shai Berger wrote:

On Saturday 22 August 2015 13:28:31 Aymeric Augustin wrote:

>

> There isn’t such a clear story for running Django on Linux. This led me to

> write <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql. Alternatives include

> <a href="https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver and

> <a href="https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc.

 

There's also <a href="https://github.com/michiya/django-pyodbc-azure/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFSAYcIu8WB9POTo5RQQLcTzPkgDA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFSAYcIu8WB9POTo5RQQLcTzPkgDA&#39;;return true;">django-pyodbc-azure, a fork of django-pyodbc (actually, the current django-pyodbc is also a fork of the original project, which has been discontinued). I took the liberty to forward the message to that project.

 

Shai.

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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Russell Keith-Magee-4
Hi Tim, Meet

I know this is very late to be mentioning, but one idea that worth
raising: DjangoCon US is next week (in Austin). Thursday and Friday
are coding sprints, where there will be many people (including a good
chunk of the core team) looking for projects to hack on.

Microsoft is already a sponsor of DjangoCon itself; if we can get some
engineers from the Azure team (assuming there aren't already some
coming), we can start some of this prep work.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 3:46 AM, Tim Graham <[hidden email]> wrote:

> To arrive at the best solution, I think a lot of discussion needs to happen
> on this mailing list before October. As for me, besides the name of some
> existing packages that offer SQL Server/Azure support, I know very little
> about the current landscape so I really wouldn't have anything to offer in a
> discussion, but there are others on this list who definitely do.
>
> The existing Microsoft database backends have come out of specific developer
> needs and I think it would maximize success if your team were personally
> invested  in the backend by building a Django application backed by SQL
> Server/Azure. If I were a Microsoft engineer responsible for this project, I
> would start by building a small Django application to solve some problem
> that my team has. Then I would test it out with all the third-party backends
> for Microsoft databases previously mentioned to get a feel for how they
> work. I should learn enough to at least participate in a discussion with
> other Django developers about the direction of this project. Ideally, I
> would be able to learn enough to write up a Django Enhancement Proposal [1]
> that summarizes the landscape and describes what an "official solution"
> should look like.
>
> If you are relying on members of the Django team to do all this upfront
> work, then please tell us so we can see if someone will do it. If you are
> expecting to get all this done in a couple days in Seattle, this doesn't
> seem feasible to me. However, if we have a working proposal by mid-September
> that the community can review and give feedback on, then I think our time
> together in October could be productive. I don't know anything about the
> background of your team, but it seems pretty unlikely that any sort of
> coding sprint would be useful unless the work and learning I described
> happens well before the workshop.
>
> [1] https://github.com/django/deps/
>
>
> On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 3:07:28 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tim,
>> Thanks for bringing it up. Yes, we will have developers who will engage
>> with Django developers (like yourself) during the workshop.
>>
>> The goals of the October workshop are to:
>>
>> 1)      Get to know each other and begin building a relationship
>>
>> 2)      Get in a room with Microsoft developers and discuss the current
>> landscape
>>
>> 3)      Work on half day coding sprint(s) with Microsoft developers to get
>> started with contributions
>>
>> 4)      Establish a plan for how Microsoft can best contribute to Django,
>> and ensure we have great integration between Azure SQL and MSSQL and Django
>> by maintaining our contributions
>>
>>
>> The key takeaway is that we want to contribute to existing solutions to
>> improve the Django and MSSQL/Azure SQL story. To do so we want to understand
>> the current landscape, the gaps, and the next steps to make this happen (the
>> right way).
>>
>>
>> We are currently in the planning stages and would love to get feedback.
>> What do you think about the goals mentioned above? Is there anything you
>> like to add/remove?
>>
>>
>> We can definitely make attending via Skype an option for attendees unable
>> to make it in person.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Meet
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 11:33:40 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
>>>
>>> By "we" do you mean the engineers at Microsoft who will be working on
>>> this? Will they be doing any planning for this before the meet up in
>>> October? I'd like to know more specifics about the agenda and goals for the
>>> workshop.
>>>
>>> Also, I wanted to make sure my question about a videoconferencing option
>>> for Django developers interested in participating in the discussion at that
>>> time but unable to travel to Seattle didn't get lost.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 7:53:48 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely agree with Tim here. We need to start exploring all the cool
>>>> open sourced third party adapters. Borrowing/adopting them definitely seems
>>>> like the way to go about things instead of re inventing the wheel. I tried
>>>> doing some research and came across the following:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Django-mssql
>>>>
>>>> 2. Django-pymssql
>>>>
>>>> 3. Django-pyodbc-azure
>>>>
>>>> 4. Django-pyodbc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing any?
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Meet
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, August 24, 2015 at 11:12:44 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess the first step is to identify which third-party backend(s)
>>>>> we'll target to adopt officially (or at least borrow from heavily). For
>>>>> example, will we need separate backends for MSSQL and Azure? (Knowing
>>>>> nothing about the landscape myself, this question could be nonsensical.) Is
>>>>> this discussion something that should happen before the October summit? It
>>>>> seems to me the face-to-face time will likely be more productive if we have
>>>>> some of the high-level details ironed out.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, is videoconferencing an option for Django developers
>>>>> interested in participating in the discussion at that time but unable to
>>>>> travel to Seattle?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 5:53:37 PM UTC-4, Shai Berger wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday 22 August 2015 13:28:31 Aymeric Augustin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > There isn’t such a clear story for running Django on Linux. This led
>>>>>> > me to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > write https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql. Alternatives
>>>>>> > include
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's also django-pyodbc-azure, a fork of django-pyodbc (actually,
>>>>>> the current django-pyodbc is also a fork of the original project, which has
>>>>>> been discontinued). I took the liberty to forward the message to that
>>>>>> project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shai.
>
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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Meet Bhagdev

Hi Russ,Tim
That is a great idea. I am going to try to engage with the team at Microsoft who is in charge of the sponsorship. I plan on attending the conference so I will see some of you there. 

@Tim: I agree that a lot of ground work needs to be done in terms of testing out the current third party adapters and deciding which one/ones should we adopt and extend. I know Michael Manfre has a lot of expertise here. I will do my due diligence and test out the existing solutions but if Michael could share some of his findings, that would be great. If anyone else also wants to take a stab at testing and using the existing adapters for a sample app, that would be great as well. I will try to share my learnings soon.

Here are the ones I am going to test, am I missing any?

Thanks,
Meet

That is a great idea. I am going to try to get hold of 
On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 4:58:40 PM UTC-7, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
Hi Tim, Meet

I know this is very late to be mentioning, but one idea that worth
raising: DjangoCon US is next week (in Austin). Thursday and Friday
are coding sprints, where there will be many people (including a good
chunk of the core team) looking for projects to hack on.

Microsoft is already a sponsor of DjangoCon itself; if we can get some
engineers from the Azure team (assuming there aren't already some
coming), we can start some of this prep work.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 3:46 AM, Tim Graham <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="GWKY__2lEQAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">timog...@...> wrote:

> To arrive at the best solution, I think a lot of discussion needs to happen
> on this mailing list before October. As for me, besides the name of some
> existing packages that offer SQL Server/Azure support, I know very little
> about the current landscape so I really wouldn't have anything to offer in a
> discussion, but there are others on this list who definitely do.
>
> The existing Microsoft database backends have come out of specific developer
> needs and I think it would maximize success if your team were personally
> invested  in the backend by building a Django application backed by SQL
> Server/Azure. If I were a Microsoft engineer responsible for this project, I
> would start by building a small Django application to solve some problem
> that my team has. Then I would test it out with all the third-party backends
> for Microsoft databases previously mentioned to get a feel for how they
> work. I should learn enough to at least participate in a discussion with
> other Django developers about the direction of this project. Ideally, I
> would be able to learn enough to write up a Django Enhancement Proposal [1]
> that summarizes the landscape and describes what an "official solution"
> should look like.
>
> If you are relying on members of the Django team to do all this upfront
> work, then please tell us so we can see if someone will do it. If you are
> expecting to get all this done in a couple days in Seattle, this doesn't
> seem feasible to me. However, if we have a working proposal by mid-September
> that the community can review and give feedback on, then I think our time
> together in October could be productive. I don't know anything about the
> background of your team, but it seems pretty unlikely that any sort of
> coding sprint would be useful unless the work and learning I described
> happens well before the workshop.
>
> [1] <a href="https://github.com/django/deps/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdeps%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEjBIHWSxzAmc5h9iaNuRqZIxMHfg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdeps%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEjBIHWSxzAmc5h9iaNuRqZIxMHfg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/django/deps/
>
>
> On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 3:07:28 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tim,
>> Thanks for bringing it up. Yes, we will have developers who will engage
>> with Django developers (like yourself) during the workshop.
>>
>> The goals of the October workshop are to:
>>
>> 1)      Get to know each other and begin building a relationship
>>
>> 2)      Get in a room with Microsoft developers and discuss the current
>> landscape
>>
>> 3)      Work on half day coding sprint(s) with Microsoft developers to get
>> started with contributions
>>
>> 4)      Establish a plan for how Microsoft can best contribute to Django,
>> and ensure we have great integration between Azure SQL and MSSQL and Django
>> by maintaining our contributions
>>
>>
>> The key takeaway is that we want to contribute to existing solutions to
>> improve the Django and MSSQL/Azure SQL story. To do so we want to understand
>> the current landscape, the gaps, and the next steps to make this happen (the
>> right way).
>>
>>
>> We are currently in the planning stages and would love to get feedback.
>> What do you think about the goals mentioned above? Is there anything you
>> like to add/remove?
>>
>>
>> We can definitely make attending via Skype an option for attendees unable
>> to make it in person.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Meet
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 11:33:40 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
>>>
>>> By "we" do you mean the engineers at Microsoft who will be working on
>>> this? Will they be doing any planning for this before the meet up in
>>> October? I'd like to know more specifics about the agenda and goals for the
>>> workshop.
>>>
>>> Also, I wanted to make sure my question about a videoconferencing option
>>> for Django developers interested in participating in the discussion at that
>>> time but unable to travel to Seattle didn't get lost.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 7:53:48 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely agree with Tim here. We need to start exploring all the cool
>>>> open sourced third party adapters. Borrowing/adopting them definitely seems
>>>> like the way to go about things instead of re inventing the wheel. I tried
>>>> doing some research and came across the following:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Django-mssql
>>>>
>>>> 2. Django-pymssql
>>>>
>>>> 3. Django-pyodbc-azure
>>>>
>>>> 4. Django-pyodbc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing any?
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Meet
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, August 24, 2015 at 11:12:44 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess the first step is to identify which third-party backend(s)
>>>>> we'll target to adopt officially (or at least borrow from heavily). For
>>>>> example, will we need separate backends for MSSQL and Azure? (Knowing
>>>>> nothing about the landscape myself, this question could be nonsensical.) Is
>>>>> this discussion something that should happen before the October summit? It
>>>>> seems to me the face-to-face time will likely be more productive if we have
>>>>> some of the high-level details ironed out.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, is videoconferencing an option for Django developers
>>>>> interested in participating in the discussion at that time but unable to
>>>>> travel to Seattle?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 5:53:37 PM UTC-4, Shai Berger wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday 22 August 2015 13:28:31 Aymeric Augustin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > There isn’t such a clear story for running Django on Linux. This led
>>>>>> > me to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > write <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql. Alternatives
>>>>>> > include
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > <a href="https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > <a href="https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's also django-pyodbc-azure, a fork of django-pyodbc (actually,
>>>>>> the current django-pyodbc is also a fork of the original project, which has
>>>>>> been discontinued). I took the liberty to forward the message to that
>>>>>> project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shai.
>
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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Meet Bhagdev
In reply to this post by Russell Keith-Magee-4

Hi Russ,Tim
That is a great idea. I am going to try to engage with the team at Microsoft who is in charge of the sponsorship. I plan on attending the conference so I will see some of you there. 

@Tim: I agree that a lot of ground work needs to be done in terms of testing out the current third party adapters and deciding which one/ones should we adopt and extend. I know Michael Manfre has a lot of expertise here. I will do my due diligence and test out the existing solutions but if Michael could share some of his findings, that would be great. If anyone else also wants to take a stab at testing and using the existing adapters for a sample app, that would be great as well. I will try to share my learnings soon.

Here are the ones I am going to test, am I missing any?
Thanks,
Meet

On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 4:58:40 PM UTC-7, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
Hi Tim, Meet

I know this is very late to be mentioning, but one idea that worth
raising: DjangoCon US is next week (in Austin). Thursday and Friday
are coding sprints, where there will be many people (including a good
chunk of the core team) looking for projects to hack on.

Microsoft is already a sponsor of DjangoCon itself; if we can get some
engineers from the Azure team (assuming there aren't already some
coming), we can start some of this prep work.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 3:46 AM, Tim Graham <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="GWKY__2lEQAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">timog...@...> wrote:

> To arrive at the best solution, I think a lot of discussion needs to happen
> on this mailing list before October. As for me, besides the name of some
> existing packages that offer SQL Server/Azure support, I know very little
> about the current landscape so I really wouldn't have anything to offer in a
> discussion, but there are others on this list who definitely do.
>
> The existing Microsoft database backends have come out of specific developer
> needs and I think it would maximize success if your team were personally
> invested  in the backend by building a Django application backed by SQL
> Server/Azure. If I were a Microsoft engineer responsible for this project, I
> would start by building a small Django application to solve some problem
> that my team has. Then I would test it out with all the third-party backends
> for Microsoft databases previously mentioned to get a feel for how they
> work. I should learn enough to at least participate in a discussion with
> other Django developers about the direction of this project. Ideally, I
> would be able to learn enough to write up a Django Enhancement Proposal [1]
> that summarizes the landscape and describes what an "official solution"
> should look like.
>
> If you are relying on members of the Django team to do all this upfront
> work, then please tell us so we can see if someone will do it. If you are
> expecting to get all this done in a couple days in Seattle, this doesn't
> seem feasible to me. However, if we have a working proposal by mid-September
> that the community can review and give feedback on, then I think our time
> together in October could be productive. I don't know anything about the
> background of your team, but it seems pretty unlikely that any sort of
> coding sprint would be useful unless the work and learning I described
> happens well before the workshop.
>
> [1] <a href="https://github.com/django/deps/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdeps%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEjBIHWSxzAmc5h9iaNuRqZIxMHfg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdeps%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEjBIHWSxzAmc5h9iaNuRqZIxMHfg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/django/deps/
>
>
> On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 3:07:28 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tim,
>> Thanks for bringing it up. Yes, we will have developers who will engage
>> with Django developers (like yourself) during the workshop.
>>
>> The goals of the October workshop are to:
>>
>> 1)      Get to know each other and begin building a relationship
>>
>> 2)      Get in a room with Microsoft developers and discuss the current
>> landscape
>>
>> 3)      Work on half day coding sprint(s) with Microsoft developers to get
>> started with contributions
>>
>> 4)      Establish a plan for how Microsoft can best contribute to Django,
>> and ensure we have great integration between Azure SQL and MSSQL and Django
>> by maintaining our contributions
>>
>>
>> The key takeaway is that we want to contribute to existing solutions to
>> improve the Django and MSSQL/Azure SQL story. To do so we want to understand
>> the current landscape, the gaps, and the next steps to make this happen (the
>> right way).
>>
>>
>> We are currently in the planning stages and would love to get feedback.
>> What do you think about the goals mentioned above? Is there anything you
>> like to add/remove?
>>
>>
>> We can definitely make attending via Skype an option for attendees unable
>> to make it in person.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Meet
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 11:33:40 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
>>>
>>> By "we" do you mean the engineers at Microsoft who will be working on
>>> this? Will they be doing any planning for this before the meet up in
>>> October? I'd like to know more specifics about the agenda and goals for the
>>> workshop.
>>>
>>> Also, I wanted to make sure my question about a videoconferencing option
>>> for Django developers interested in participating in the discussion at that
>>> time but unable to travel to Seattle didn't get lost.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 7:53:48 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely agree with Tim here. We need to start exploring all the cool
>>>> open sourced third party adapters. Borrowing/adopting them definitely seems
>>>> like the way to go about things instead of re inventing the wheel. I tried
>>>> doing some research and came across the following:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Django-mssql
>>>>
>>>> 2. Django-pymssql
>>>>
>>>> 3. Django-pyodbc-azure
>>>>
>>>> 4. Django-pyodbc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing any?
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Meet
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, August 24, 2015 at 11:12:44 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess the first step is to identify which third-party backend(s)
>>>>> we'll target to adopt officially (or at least borrow from heavily). For
>>>>> example, will we need separate backends for MSSQL and Azure? (Knowing
>>>>> nothing about the landscape myself, this question could be nonsensical.) Is
>>>>> this discussion something that should happen before the October summit? It
>>>>> seems to me the face-to-face time will likely be more productive if we have
>>>>> some of the high-level details ironed out.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, is videoconferencing an option for Django developers
>>>>> interested in participating in the discussion at that time but unable to
>>>>> travel to Seattle?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 5:53:37 PM UTC-4, Shai Berger wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday 22 August 2015 13:28:31 Aymeric Augustin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > There isn’t such a clear story for running Django on Linux. This led
>>>>>> > me to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > write <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql. Alternatives
>>>>>> > include
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > <a href="https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > <a href="https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's also django-pyodbc-azure, a fork of django-pyodbc (actually,
>>>>>> the current django-pyodbc is also a fork of the original project, which has
>>>>>> been discontinued). I took the liberty to forward the message to that
>>>>>> project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shai.
>
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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Tim Graham-2
Hi Meet,

Will you be the primary contributor/maintainer from Microsoft of this project or will their be other engineers at Microsoft involved? I'd like to understand the bus factor on your side and how much time resources you plan to provide.

To give you an idea of how our community works when it comes to decision making and implementing large features, I thought you might find Aymeric's log of his work to add multiple template engines support to Django helpful: https://myks.org/en/multiple-template-engines-for-django/.

On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 10:52:31 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:

Hi Russ,Tim
That is a great idea. I am going to try to engage with the team at Microsoft who is in charge of the sponsorship. I plan on attending the conference so I will see some of you there. 

@Tim: I agree that a lot of ground work needs to be done in terms of testing out the current third party adapters and deciding which one/ones should we adopt and extend. I know Michael Manfre has a lot of expertise here. I will do my due diligence and test out the existing solutions but if Michael could share some of his findings, that would be great. If anyone else also wants to take a stab at testing and using the existing adapters for a sample app, that would be great as well. I will try to share my learnings soon.

Here are the ones I am going to test, am I missing any?

1. <a href="https://bitbucket.org/Manfre/django-mssql/src" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2FManfre%2Fdjango-mssql%2Fsrc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGjuvryAgBu02Vr-E9Esyyf3QLLjQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2FManfre%2Fdjango-mssql%2Fsrc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGjuvryAgBu02Vr-E9Esyyf3QLLjQ&#39;;return true;">Django-mssql

2. <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">Django-pymssql

3. <a href="https://github.com/michiya/django-pyodbc-azure" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEkuUHQaG2aIqmMNZhxICjUkYD3CA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEkuUHQaG2aIqmMNZhxICjUkYD3CA&#39;;return true;">Django-pyodbc-azure

4. <a href="https://github.com/avidal/django-pyodbc" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Favidal%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHfd63AEsxgN2mm5CPGpY5malAK9A&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Favidal%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHfd63AEsxgN2mm5CPGpY5malAK9A&#39;;return true;">Django-pyodbc


Thanks,
Meet

On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 4:58:40 PM UTC-7, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
Hi Tim, Meet

I know this is very late to be mentioning, but one idea that worth
raising: DjangoCon US is next week (in Austin). Thursday and Friday
are coding sprints, where there will be many people (including a good
chunk of the core team) looking for projects to hack on.

Microsoft is already a sponsor of DjangoCon itself; if we can get some
engineers from the Azure team (assuming there aren't already some
coming), we can start some of this prep work.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 3:46 AM, Tim Graham <[hidden email]> wrote:

> To arrive at the best solution, I think a lot of discussion needs to happen
> on this mailing list before October. As for me, besides the name of some
> existing packages that offer SQL Server/Azure support, I know very little
> about the current landscape so I really wouldn't have anything to offer in a
> discussion, but there are others on this list who definitely do.
>
> The existing Microsoft database backends have come out of specific developer
> needs and I think it would maximize success if your team were personally
> invested  in the backend by building a Django application backed by SQL
> Server/Azure. If I were a Microsoft engineer responsible for this project, I
> would start by building a small Django application to solve some problem
> that my team has. Then I would test it out with all the third-party backends
> for Microsoft databases previously mentioned to get a feel for how they
> work. I should learn enough to at least participate in a discussion with
> other Django developers about the direction of this project. Ideally, I
> would be able to learn enough to write up a Django Enhancement Proposal [1]
> that summarizes the landscape and describes what an "official solution"
> should look like.
>
> If you are relying on members of the Django team to do all this upfront
> work, then please tell us so we can see if someone will do it. If you are
> expecting to get all this done in a couple days in Seattle, this doesn't
> seem feasible to me. However, if we have a working proposal by mid-September
> that the community can review and give feedback on, then I think our time
> together in October could be productive. I don't know anything about the
> background of your team, but it seems pretty unlikely that any sort of
> coding sprint would be useful unless the work and learning I described
> happens well before the workshop.
>
> [1] <a href="https://github.com/django/deps/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdeps%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEjBIHWSxzAmc5h9iaNuRqZIxMHfg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdeps%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEjBIHWSxzAmc5h9iaNuRqZIxMHfg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/django/deps/
>
>
> On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 3:07:28 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tim,
>> Thanks for bringing it up. Yes, we will have developers who will engage
>> with Django developers (like yourself) during the workshop.
>>
>> The goals of the October workshop are to:
>>
>> 1)      Get to know each other and begin building a relationship
>>
>> 2)      Get in a room with Microsoft developers and discuss the current
>> landscape
>>
>> 3)      Work on half day coding sprint(s) with Microsoft developers to get
>> started with contributions
>>
>> 4)      Establish a plan for how Microsoft can best contribute to Django,
>> and ensure we have great integration between Azure SQL and MSSQL and Django
>> by maintaining our contributions
>>
>>
>> The key takeaway is that we want to contribute to existing solutions to
>> improve the Django and MSSQL/Azure SQL story. To do so we want to understand
>> the current landscape, the gaps, and the next steps to make this happen (the
>> right way).
>>
>>
>> We are currently in the planning stages and would love to get feedback.
>> What do you think about the goals mentioned above? Is there anything you
>> like to add/remove?
>>
>>
>> We can definitely make attending via Skype an option for attendees unable
>> to make it in person.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Meet
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 11:33:40 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
>>>
>>> By "we" do you mean the engineers at Microsoft who will be working on
>>> this? Will they be doing any planning for this before the meet up in
>>> October? I'd like to know more specifics about the agenda and goals for the
>>> workshop.
>>>
>>> Also, I wanted to make sure my question about a videoconferencing option
>>> for Django developers interested in participating in the discussion at that
>>> time but unable to travel to Seattle didn't get lost.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 7:53:48 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely agree with Tim here. We need to start exploring all the cool
>>>> open sourced third party adapters. Borrowing/adopting them definitely seems
>>>> like the way to go about things instead of re inventing the wheel. I tried
>>>> doing some research and came across the following:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Django-mssql
>>>>
>>>> 2. Django-pymssql
>>>>
>>>> 3. Django-pyodbc-azure
>>>>
>>>> 4. Django-pyodbc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing any?
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Meet
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, August 24, 2015 at 11:12:44 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess the first step is to identify which third-party backend(s)
>>>>> we'll target to adopt officially (or at least borrow from heavily). For
>>>>> example, will we need separate backends for MSSQL and Azure? (Knowing
>>>>> nothing about the landscape myself, this question could be nonsensical.) Is
>>>>> this discussion something that should happen before the October summit? It
>>>>> seems to me the face-to-face time will likely be more productive if we have
>>>>> some of the high-level details ironed out.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, is videoconferencing an option for Django developers
>>>>> interested in participating in the discussion at that time but unable to
>>>>> travel to Seattle?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 5:53:37 PM UTC-4, Shai Berger wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday 22 August 2015 13:28:31 Aymeric Augustin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > There isn’t such a clear story for running Django on Linux. This led
>>>>>> > me to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > write <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql. Alternatives
>>>>>> > include
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > <a href="https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > <a href="https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's also django-pyodbc-azure, a fork of django-pyodbc (actually,
>>>>>> the current django-pyodbc is also a fork of the original project, which has
>>>>>> been discontinued). I took the liberty to forward the message to that
>>>>>> project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shai.
>
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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Ramiro Morales-2
In reply to this post by Meet Bhagdev
Hi all,

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 2:39 PM, Meet Bhagdev <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Django Committers,
>
>
>
> My name is Meet Bhagdev, I work in the Database Systems engineering team at
> Microsoft in Seattle, WA. My focus is the APIs used to connect to and use
> Azure SQL Database and SQL Server (MSSQL). Example APIs are ODBC, JDBC,
> ADO.NET, etc.

(sorry for possibly repeating things folks have already posted to this thread)

Meet: Is this list of APIs the final and full one?

Because there is work being done on a different stack, the one formed by :

* FreeTDS (http://www.freetds.org/ GPL licensed) which implements the
wire-level TDS protocol.
* pymssql (http://pymssql.org LGPL licensed) -- Python bindings for
FreeTDS which implements the Python DB-API 2.0. I'm part of the team
maintaining it
* django-pymssql (https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql ,
MIT-licensed) which was created by Aymeric Augustin and depends on
pymssql plus ...
* django-mssql (https://django-mssql.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ ,
MIT-licensed) which was created by Michael Manfre

Michael, Aymeric and me are Django development team members.

Personally, I've been working on stabilizing the lower layers by
following a "yak shaving" non-strategy:

We (the pymssql team) realised the official pymssql Windows binaries
(in particular the FreeTDS libraries) we published when releasing
pymssql 2.1.1 don't link in a SSL implementation and so they aren't
usable to actually connect to Azure even if the pymssql code iself has
such ability.

This, plus the fact that the manual process of creating the actual
matrix of Windows deliverables is a bit tedious led me to try using
the AppVeyor.com hosted Windows CI platform (free for open source
projects) to test and actually build the binaries. The work in
progress on this can be seen at
https://github.com/ramiro/pymssql/tree/appveyor and
https://ci.appveyor.com/project/ramiro/pymssql

(When working on pymssql 2.1.1 at some point I created a free Azure
account with my credit card, tested (on Linux) the pymssql
implementation of connection changes needed to get it to work against
Azure's SQL Server and cancelled it before it started billing.)

So, this led me to start contributing to FreeTDS so to get it back to
build cleanly on Windows (work partially included with the 0.95
release back in June) and to also get it built/tested using
AppVeyor.com using the experience gained with pymssql. This has been
already merged in the current FreeTDS development code and allows the
maintainer and contributors to work without access to Windows/SQL
Server licenses (my case).

- https://ci.appveyor.com/project/freetds/freetds
- https://github.com/FreeTDS/freetds/commit/3db5caa48f281f3558d4031cb5a0f0d8e8eef28c

I know MS dropped support of the DB-Library (and hence the API it
provides, of which FreeTDS is a open source implementation) back in
the SQL Server 2005 times. That's why I ask if this stack has any
chance of getting some  support from Microsoft.

Personal motivation for this is simply to get Django (running on
Linux) + SQL Server to be a viable choice, even when I currently have
no actual need of this. I was one of the two developers behind the
original django-pyodbc project which had reached "almost full Django
test suite passing" status back in the Django 1.0 & 1.1 (2008-2009)
times, but abandoned it when discoverd (by logging the traffic with
SQL Servr tools) that the combination of pyodbc + Linux ODBC stack
meant the queries were sent twice to the DB server, see
https://code.google.com/p/django-pyodbc/issues/detail?id=16 . This is
also why I started considering a FreeTDS-based solution a better
technical choice.

I'm posting a message to the FreeTDS mailing list later today pointing
to Meet's post which opened this thread.

Regards,

--
Ramiro Morales
@ramiromorales

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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Meet Bhagdev
In reply to this post by Tim Graham-2
Hi Tim,
I will definitely be driving the initial planing and will help lay out the ground work. There will be other engineer(s) who will work on contributing to third party adapter(s) and the Django project(eventualy). 
But first, we need to figure out the ask and the nature of work required. The goal of our October coding camp workshop is to figure that out the ask, by bringing developers from the Django community like yourself, and the developers from my team, to come together and better understand the technical details. 
Once we have a clear understanding of the existing solutions and the amount of work required on improving the Django-MSSQL/Azure SQL story we will be able to commit developer(s) that will contribute and do all the heavy lifting.
Also thanks for the share of Aymeric's log of his work on the template engine. I absolutely agree on having something similar for the work we are planning on doing. Once we have a clear idea I will start working on something similar. A final version of this may only be possible after the October event.

Best,
Meet

On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 7:49:07 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
Hi Meet,

Will you be the primary contributor/maintainer from Microsoft of this project or will their be other engineers at Microsoft involved? I'd like to understand the bus factor on your side and how much time resources you plan to provide.

To give you an idea of how our community works when it comes to decision making and implementing large features, I thought you might find Aymeric's log of his work to add multiple template engines support to Django helpful: <a href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fmyks.org%2Fen%2Fmultiple-template-engines-for-django%2F&amp;sa=D&amp;sntz=1&amp;usg=AFQjCNEj2cWQjnHK9wv0aYWZNldUPGMBXg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmyks.org%2Fen%2Fmultiple-template-engines-for-django%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEj2cWQjnHK9wv0aYWZNldUPGMBXg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmyks.org%2Fen%2Fmultiple-template-engines-for-django%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEj2cWQjnHK9wv0aYWZNldUPGMBXg&#39;;return true;">https://myks.org/en/multiple-template-engines-for-django/.

On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 10:52:31 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:

Hi Russ,Tim
That is a great idea. I am going to try to engage with the team at Microsoft who is in charge of the sponsorship. I plan on attending the conference so I will see some of you there. 

@Tim: I agree that a lot of ground work needs to be done in terms of testing out the current third party adapters and deciding which one/ones should we adopt and extend. I know Michael Manfre has a lot of expertise here. I will do my due diligence and test out the existing solutions but if Michael could share some of his findings, that would be great. If anyone else also wants to take a stab at testing and using the existing adapters for a sample app, that would be great as well. I will try to share my learnings soon.

Here are the ones I am going to test, am I missing any?

1. <a href="https://bitbucket.org/Manfre/django-mssql/src" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2FManfre%2Fdjango-mssql%2Fsrc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGjuvryAgBu02Vr-E9Esyyf3QLLjQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fbitbucket.org%2FManfre%2Fdjango-mssql%2Fsrc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGjuvryAgBu02Vr-E9Esyyf3QLLjQ&#39;;return true;">Django-mssql

2. <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">Django-pymssql

3. <a href="https://github.com/michiya/django-pyodbc-azure" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEkuUHQaG2aIqmMNZhxICjUkYD3CA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmichiya%2Fdjango-pyodbc-azure\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEkuUHQaG2aIqmMNZhxICjUkYD3CA&#39;;return true;">Django-pyodbc-azure

4. <a href="https://github.com/avidal/django-pyodbc" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Favidal%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHfd63AEsxgN2mm5CPGpY5malAK9A&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Favidal%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHfd63AEsxgN2mm5CPGpY5malAK9A&#39;;return true;">Django-pyodbc


Thanks,
Meet

On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 4:58:40 PM UTC-7, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
Hi Tim, Meet

I know this is very late to be mentioning, but one idea that worth
raising: DjangoCon US is next week (in Austin). Thursday and Friday
are coding sprints, where there will be many people (including a good
chunk of the core team) looking for projects to hack on.

Microsoft is already a sponsor of DjangoCon itself; if we can get some
engineers from the Azure team (assuming there aren't already some
coming), we can start some of this prep work.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 3:46 AM, Tim Graham <[hidden email]> wrote:

> To arrive at the best solution, I think a lot of discussion needs to happen
> on this mailing list before October. As for me, besides the name of some
> existing packages that offer SQL Server/Azure support, I know very little
> about the current landscape so I really wouldn't have anything to offer in a
> discussion, but there are others on this list who definitely do.
>
> The existing Microsoft database backends have come out of specific developer
> needs and I think it would maximize success if your team were personally
> invested  in the backend by building a Django application backed by SQL
> Server/Azure. If I were a Microsoft engineer responsible for this project, I
> would start by building a small Django application to solve some problem
> that my team has. Then I would test it out with all the third-party backends
> for Microsoft databases previously mentioned to get a feel for how they
> work. I should learn enough to at least participate in a discussion with
> other Django developers about the direction of this project. Ideally, I
> would be able to learn enough to write up a Django Enhancement Proposal [1]
> that summarizes the landscape and describes what an "official solution"
> should look like.
>
> If you are relying on members of the Django team to do all this upfront
> work, then please tell us so we can see if someone will do it. If you are
> expecting to get all this done in a couple days in Seattle, this doesn't
> seem feasible to me. However, if we have a working proposal by mid-September
> that the community can review and give feedback on, then I think our time
> together in October could be productive. I don't know anything about the
> background of your team, but it seems pretty unlikely that any sort of
> coding sprint would be useful unless the work and learning I described
> happens well before the workshop.
>
> [1] <a href="https://github.com/django/deps/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdeps%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEjBIHWSxzAmc5h9iaNuRqZIxMHfg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdeps%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEjBIHWSxzAmc5h9iaNuRqZIxMHfg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/django/deps/
>
>
> On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 3:07:28 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tim,
>> Thanks for bringing it up. Yes, we will have developers who will engage
>> with Django developers (like yourself) during the workshop.
>>
>> The goals of the October workshop are to:
>>
>> 1)      Get to know each other and begin building a relationship
>>
>> 2)      Get in a room with Microsoft developers and discuss the current
>> landscape
>>
>> 3)      Work on half day coding sprint(s) with Microsoft developers to get
>> started with contributions
>>
>> 4)      Establish a plan for how Microsoft can best contribute to Django,
>> and ensure we have great integration between Azure SQL and MSSQL and Django
>> by maintaining our contributions
>>
>>
>> The key takeaway is that we want to contribute to existing solutions to
>> improve the Django and MSSQL/Azure SQL story. To do so we want to understand
>> the current landscape, the gaps, and the next steps to make this happen (the
>> right way).
>>
>>
>> We are currently in the planning stages and would love to get feedback.
>> What do you think about the goals mentioned above? Is there anything you
>> like to add/remove?
>>
>>
>> We can definitely make attending via Skype an option for attendees unable
>> to make it in person.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Meet
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 11:33:40 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
>>>
>>> By "we" do you mean the engineers at Microsoft who will be working on
>>> this? Will they be doing any planning for this before the meet up in
>>> October? I'd like to know more specifics about the agenda and goals for the
>>> workshop.
>>>
>>> Also, I wanted to make sure my question about a videoconferencing option
>>> for Django developers interested in participating in the discussion at that
>>> time but unable to travel to Seattle didn't get lost.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 7:53:48 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely agree with Tim here. We need to start exploring all the cool
>>>> open sourced third party adapters. Borrowing/adopting them definitely seems
>>>> like the way to go about things instead of re inventing the wheel. I tried
>>>> doing some research and came across the following:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Django-mssql
>>>>
>>>> 2. Django-pymssql
>>>>
>>>> 3. Django-pyodbc-azure
>>>>
>>>> 4. Django-pyodbc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing any?
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Meet
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, August 24, 2015 at 11:12:44 AM UTC-7, Tim Graham wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess the first step is to identify which third-party backend(s)
>>>>> we'll target to adopt officially (or at least borrow from heavily). For
>>>>> example, will we need separate backends for MSSQL and Azure? (Knowing
>>>>> nothing about the landscape myself, this question could be nonsensical.) Is
>>>>> this discussion something that should happen before the October summit? It
>>>>> seems to me the face-to-face time will likely be more productive if we have
>>>>> some of the high-level details ironed out.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, is videoconferencing an option for Django developers
>>>>> interested in participating in the discussion at that time but unable to
>>>>> travel to Seattle?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 5:53:37 PM UTC-4, Shai Berger wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday 22 August 2015 13:28:31 Aymeric Augustin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > There isn’t such a clear story for running Django on Linux. This led
>>>>>> > me to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > write <a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql. Alternatives
>>>>>> > include
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > <a href="https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdenisenkom%2Fdjango-sqlserver\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCacr44rFGUEc3HHQzDbXkT7UTIg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/denisenkom/django-sqlserver and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > <a href="https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flionheart%2Fdjango-pyodbc\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGqhbEeHg3Js7KLYimrmpcAe8bzzw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/lionheart/django-pyodbc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's also django-pyodbc-azure, a fork of django-pyodbc (actually,
>>>>>> the current django-pyodbc is also a fork of the original project, which has
>>>>>> been discontinued). I took the liberty to forward the message to that
>>>>>> project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shai.
>
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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Meet Bhagdev
In reply to this post by Ramiro Morales-2


On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:05:23 PM UTC-7, Ramiro Morales wrote:
Hi all,

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 2:39 PM, Meet Bhagdev <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="D0M9qUxXAAAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">meetb...@...> wrote:
> Hi Django Committers,
>
>
>
> My name is Meet Bhagdev, I work in the Database Systems engineering team at
> Microsoft in Seattle, WA. My focus is the APIs used to connect to and use
> Azure SQL Database and SQL Server (MSSQL). Example APIs are ODBC, JDBC,
> <a href="http://ADO.NET" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2FADO.NET\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNH73a1JonozVz7ZKlYVuGb4UaB0Qw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2FADO.NET\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNH73a1JonozVz7ZKlYVuGb4UaB0Qw&#39;;return true;">ADO.NET, etc.

(sorry for possibly repeating things folks have already posted to this thread)

Meet: Is this list of APIs the final and full one?

 

This is definitely not a final and full one. We have actually started endorsing pymssql and FreeTDS to our Linux and Mac customers who want to use Azure SQL. 

    We have also created documentation that lets customers use pymssql on 

    1. Windows: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql-database-develop-python-simple-windows/

    2. Linux: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql-database-develop-python-simple-ubuntu-linux/

    3. Mac: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql-database-develop-python-simple-mac-osx/

 

 Also a big thank you from everyone on our team here for working on FreeTDS and pymssql. I definitely makes our customers lives easier
 
Because there is work being done on a different stack, the one formed by :

* FreeTDS (<a href="http://www.freetds.org/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freetds.org%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE4pBTxgGURjsdD3MdkkvVnGJz5lw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freetds.org%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE4pBTxgGURjsdD3MdkkvVnGJz5lw&#39;;return true;">http://www.freetds.org/ GPL licensed) which implements the
wire-level TDS protocol.
* pymssql (<a href="http://pymssql.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpymssql.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEbtq4-moK2EcTyGS8VmPDMedVJ5g&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpymssql.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEbtq4-moK2EcTyGS8VmPDMedVJ5g&#39;;return true;">http://pymssql.org LGPL licensed) -- Python bindings for
FreeTDS which implements the Python DB-API 2.0. I'm part of the team
maintaining it
* django-pymssql (<a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql ,
MIT-licensed) which was created by Aymeric Augustin and depends on
pymssql plus ...
* django-mssql (<a href="https://django-mssql.readthedocs.org/en/latest/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fdjango-mssql.readthedocs.org%2Fen%2Flatest%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHRhz9knr0LphoaB2rd6iKYBIrzdg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fdjango-mssql.readthedocs.org%2Fen%2Flatest%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHRhz9knr0LphoaB2rd6iKYBIrzdg&#39;;return true;">https://django-mssql.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ ,
MIT-licensed) which was created by Michael Manfre

I am currently exploring django-pymssql, django-mssql, and django-pyodbc-azure to see which adapter(s) can we adopt to provide Django and MSSQL/Azure SQL support. Do have any opinions as to which one(s) should we contribute to eventually? 
 
Michael, Aymeric and me are Django development team members.

Personally, I've been working on stabilizing the lower layers by
following a "yak shaving" non-strategy:

We (the pymssql team) realised the official pymssql Windows binaries
(in particular the FreeTDS libraries) we published when releasing
pymssql 2.1.1 don't link in a SSL implementation and so they aren't
usable to actually connect to Azure even if the pymssql code iself has
such ability.

 I looked around and it seems like this problem was fixed on this page by Christoph Gohlke from University of California, Irvine: http://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/#pymssql. I downloaded pymssql from here and it seemed like it links the SSL implementations. I also documented the procedure here: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql-database-develop-python-simple-windows/


This, plus the fact that the manual process of creating the actual
matrix of Windows deliverables is a bit tedious led me to try using
the AppVeyor.com hosted Windows CI platform (free for open source
projects) to test and actually build the binaries. The work in
progress on this can be seen at
<a href="https://github.com/ramiro/pymssql/tree/appveyor" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Framiro%2Fpymssql%2Ftree%2Fappveyor\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFdtEt1uS3mbX03VAAU6_ZMsVa9ZA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Framiro%2Fpymssql%2Ftree%2Fappveyor\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFdtEt1uS3mbX03VAAU6_ZMsVa9ZA&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/ramiro/pymssql/tree/appveyor and
<a href="https://ci.appveyor.com/project/ramiro/pymssql" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fci.appveyor.com%2Fproject%2Framiro%2Fpymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG_lvC-I5YshbCIXo5wUns_wrCZSg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fci.appveyor.com%2Fproject%2Framiro%2Fpymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG_lvC-I5YshbCIXo5wUns_wrCZSg&#39;;return true;">https://ci.appveyor.com/project/ramiro/pymssql

(When working on pymssql 2.1.1 at some point I created a free Azure
account with my credit card, tested (on Linux) the pymssql
implementation of connection changes needed to get it to work against
Azure's SQL Server and cancelled it before it started billing.)

Do you still need Azure credits to run Azure SQL for free, I can try to get some free credits for you and the FreeTDS and pymssql team depending on the need. 
 
So, this led me to start contributing to FreeTDS so to get it back to
build cleanly on Windows (work partially included with the 0.95
release back in June) and to also get it built/tested using
AppVeyor.com using the experience gained with pymssql. This has been
already merged in the current FreeTDS development code and allows the
maintainer and contributors to work without access to Windows/SQL
Server licenses (my case).

- <a href="https://ci.appveyor.com/project/freetds/freetds" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fci.appveyor.com%2Fproject%2Ffreetds%2Ffreetds\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEysS3dOaTbpzBOCtYmo8VakAldAg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fci.appveyor.com%2Fproject%2Ffreetds%2Ffreetds\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEysS3dOaTbpzBOCtYmo8VakAldAg&#39;;return true;">https://ci.appveyor.com/project/freetds/freetds
- <a href="https://github.com/FreeTDS/freetds/commit/3db5caa48f281f3558d4031cb5a0f0d8e8eef28c" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FFreeTDS%2Ffreetds%2Fcommit%2F3db5caa48f281f3558d4031cb5a0f0d8e8eef28c\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFccT5WUrPjNrRNEvI6YD1fmPB9YQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FFreeTDS%2Ffreetds%2Fcommit%2F3db5caa48f281f3558d4031cb5a0f0d8e8eef28c\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFccT5WUrPjNrRNEvI6YD1fmPB9YQ&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/FreeTDS/freetds/commit/3db5caa48f281f3558d4031cb5a0f0d8e8eef28c 
 
  This is great to hear. Getting it on Appveyor definitely makes it easy to build on Windows. 
 
I know MS dropped support of the DB-Library (and hence the API it
provides, of which FreeTDS is a open source implementation) back in
the SQL Server 2005 times. That's why I ask if this stack has any
chance of getting some  support from Microsoft.

We are very much looking at providing support(as you can tell) from our documentation mentioned above. We are currently in the prioritization stage and would love to discuss some of the things you need support for. As for now, we feel Django is a good place to start, as there is customer demand and we are falling behind. Would have a document which highlights the todo feature list where you need help on? I can pass it on to my team to get some responses so that we can get the ball rolling.

 
Personal motivation for this is simply to get Django (running on
Linux) + SQL Server to be a viable choice, even when I currently have
no actual need of this. I was one of the two developers behind the
original django-pyodbc project which had reached "almost full Django
test suite passing" status back in the Django 1.0 & 1.1 (2008-2009)
times, but abandoned it when discoverd (by logging the traffic with
SQL Servr tools) that the combination of pyodbc + Linux ODBC stack
meant the queries were sent twice to the DB server, see
<a href="https://code.google.com/p/django-pyodbc/issues/detail?id=16" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://code.google.com/p/django-pyodbc/issues/detail?id\07516&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://code.google.com/p/django-pyodbc/issues/detail?id\07516&#39;;return true;">https://code.google.com/p/django-pyodbc/issues/detail?id=16 . This is
also why I started considering a FreeTDS-based solution a better
technical choice.

 

That is a great find. I actually was not aware of that. The good news for the Linux side of the story here is that we are releasing a new Linux ODBC driver in the next 2 months. It would be great if we can test this out and see how it goes. 

I'm posting a message to the FreeTDS mailing list later today pointing
to Meet's post which opened this thread.

I look forward to the response :) Please let me know if you have any questions 

Regards,

--
Ramiro Morales
@ramiromorales

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Re: Improving MSSQL and Azure SQL support on Django

Tim Allen
Sorry to have missed meeting you at DjangoCon, Meet, but I'll add my findings here to the record.

By way of background, I work at The Wharton School, where we're a Python/Django (on RHEL) and SQL Server shop. I was responsible for implementing a working configuration for Django, starting with version 1.6, including building Vagrant boxes for developers which had to be 'vagrant up plug-and-play' ready to go. We've had pretty good success with the stack we're now using, but hit quite a few pain points and found many points where things can very much be improved.

First, drivers at the Linux level.
  • We've had our best luck with FreeTDS and unixODBC for reliability. We've been using it successfully throughout the process.
    • We found the MS provided driver more performant, specifically when dealing with large numbers of inserts.
    • The MS driver also offered features like bulk-loading of data, which while not Django specific, would have still been a big win for our team using Python without Django.
    • FreeTDS + unixODBC runs under any Linux distro we tested (RHEL/CentOS, Ubuntu, Debian) and Solaris.
  • As mentioned, we found the MSODBC Driver for RedHat (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=36437) to be more performant, however, ran into quite a few issues starting with Django 1.7.
    • There seem to be issues with multi-threading. Starting with Django 1.7, we had to run Django's runserver with the '--nothreading' option.
    • We ran into further issues with SQLRowCount returns from the driver. These rendered it unusable.
    • Only supports RedHat, but also works on CentOS. We'd prefer one that at least also works on Ubuntu/Debian (a definite must for the Django community).
    • The driver is closed-source.
  • A note about FreeTDS: while FreeTDS 0.95 support TDS Version 7.3, as does pyodbc, we had to stick with TDS Version 7.2, as any stack we tried mapped to incorrect column types when switching to 7.3, which supports new SQL Server 2008 column types. I haven't had the time to dig deeper, map correctly, and issue a P.R. on this one. Additionally, TDS version numbers are very confusing to users (see my Stack Overflow responses, heh). At one point in time, FreeTDS has named the new TDS version "8.0" before Microsoft made an official declaration; Microsoft then called it "7.2". While often this will not affect configuration, now that 7.3 is support in FreeTDS 0.95, if "8.0" is entered in configuration, it is now default to "7.3" which causes issues, and the configuration in Django, odbc.ini, and freetds.conf must all explicitly state "7.2".
Regardless of the driver chosen (FreeTDS+unixODBC or MSODBC), we ended up having to use pyodbc instead of pymssql:
  • We have a test suite performing table creates / destroys, basic CRUD operations, stored procedure execution, and more against both pyodbc and pymssql.
    • pymssql outperforms pyodbc significantly against SQL Server, especially on SELECT and INSERT operations.
  • pymssql on Linux offers no stable Django options, as noted throughout this thread.
  • pyodbc offers several options.
    • we initially started using django-pyodbc (lionheart on GitHub), which worked but required quite a few tweaks to the settings.
    • we moved to django-pyodbc-azure, which we found a much easier install / Django DATABASES {} configuration, and is kept up to date in a timely fashion.
To summarize, here's what we now use:
  • FreeTDS 0.91 - 0.95 (dependent on RedHat/CentOS version)
  • unixODBC (dependent on RedHat/CentOS version)
  • pyodbc
  • django-pyodbc-azure
It works well for us, but we've had to make compromises, and the promise of better performance we've seen in certain scenarios is tempting. If I were building a wish list, here's what I'd like to see, for performance and ease-of-installation:
  • Native driver to replace FreeTDS + unixODBC for SQL Server connections that is supported and runs on more than just RedHat/CentOS, preferably open source!
  • Easy, prompt free option for install: I had to hack to install to avoid having to respond to interactive prompts in Vagrantfiles, Chef recipes, etc.
  • Eventual inclusion in EPEL, etc, for yum or apt-get installs.
  • Python package (to replace pyodbc with one that supports SQL Server functionality and performance)
  • Django-Python package (to replicate django-pyodbc-azure's mappings to the pyodbc replacement)
  • Support bcp, SSIS, DATE data type, FILTERED and SPATIAL (GeoDjango, anyone?) index types, easy Stored Procedure calls, OUTPUT variables, and more I can't remember off the top of my head.
These would also be big wins for users of other languages / frameworks, such as PHP and Ruby web frameworks, Flask, etc, who use SQL Server.

So there's a quick brain dump, sorry for the wall of text, but we've done a lot of research in this area. Please let me know how I can help - and thank you to the efforts of everyone who's done some amazing work to keep Django plugged into SQL Server.

Regards,

Tim A.

On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 10:15:10 PM UTC-4, Meet Bhagdev wrote:


On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:05:23 PM UTC-7, Ramiro Morales wrote:
Hi all,

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 2:39 PM, Meet Bhagdev <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Django Committers,
>
>
>
> My name is Meet Bhagdev, I work in the Database Systems engineering team at
> Microsoft in Seattle, WA. My focus is the APIs used to connect to and use
> Azure SQL Database and SQL Server (MSSQL). Example APIs are ODBC, JDBC,
> <a href="http://ADO.NET" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2FADO.NET\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNH73a1JonozVz7ZKlYVuGb4UaB0Qw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2FADO.NET\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNH73a1JonozVz7ZKlYVuGb4UaB0Qw&#39;;return true;">ADO.NET, etc.

(sorry for possibly repeating things folks have already posted to this thread)

Meet: Is this list of APIs the final and full one?

 

This is definitely not a final and full one. We have actually started endorsing pymssql and FreeTDS to our Linux and Mac customers who want to use Azure SQL. 

    We have also created documentation that lets customers use pymssql on 

    1. Windows: <a href="https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql-database-develop-python-simple-windows/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fazure.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdocumentation%2Farticles%2Fsql-database-develop-python-simple-windows%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF59WrjIiI16PaM1zASg6rE1_aUxQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fazure.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdocumentation%2Farticles%2Fsql-database-develop-python-simple-windows%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF59WrjIiI16PaM1zASg6rE1_aUxQ&#39;;return true;">https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql-database-develop-python-simple-windows/

    2. Linux: <a href="https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql-database-develop-python-simple-ubuntu-linux/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fazure.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdocumentation%2Farticles%2Fsql-database-develop-python-simple-ubuntu-linux%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNElyVTTTBMDUr7UE9ZtRRNmmBra4A&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fazure.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdocumentation%2Farticles%2Fsql-database-develop-python-simple-ubuntu-linux%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNElyVTTTBMDUr7UE9ZtRRNmmBra4A&#39;;return true;">https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql-database-develop-python-simple-ubuntu-linux/

    3. Mac: <a href="https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql-database-develop-python-simple-mac-osx/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fazure.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdocumentation%2Farticles%2Fsql-database-develop-python-simple-mac-osx%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGIVr0yWv5ORsM9ERZdrau-596f4w&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fazure.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdocumentation%2Farticles%2Fsql-database-develop-python-simple-mac-osx%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGIVr0yWv5ORsM9ERZdrau-596f4w&#39;;return true;">https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql-database-develop-python-simple-mac-osx/

 

 Also a big thank you from everyone on our team here for working on FreeTDS and pymssql. I definitely makes our customers lives easier
 
Because there is work being done on a different stack, the one formed by :

* FreeTDS (<a href="http://www.freetds.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freetds.org%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE4pBTxgGURjsdD3MdkkvVnGJz5lw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freetds.org%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE4pBTxgGURjsdD3MdkkvVnGJz5lw&#39;;return true;">http://www.freetds.org/ GPL licensed) which implements the
wire-level TDS protocol.
* pymssql (<a href="http://pymssql.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpymssql.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEbtq4-moK2EcTyGS8VmPDMedVJ5g&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpymssql.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEbtq4-moK2EcTyGS8VmPDMedVJ5g&#39;;return true;">http://pymssql.org LGPL licensed) -- Python bindings for
FreeTDS which implements the Python DB-API 2.0. I'm part of the team
maintaining it
* django-pymssql (<a href="https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Faaugustin%2Fdjango-pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMgydPDDzxOljuFCsCE53QwZXJBw&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/aaugustin/django-pymssql ,
MIT-licensed) which was created by Aymeric Augustin and depends on
pymssql plus ...
* django-mssql (<a href="https://django-mssql.readthedocs.org/en/latest/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fdjango-mssql.readthedocs.org%2Fen%2Flatest%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHRhz9knr0LphoaB2rd6iKYBIrzdg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fdjango-mssql.readthedocs.org%2Fen%2Flatest%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHRhz9knr0LphoaB2rd6iKYBIrzdg&#39;;return true;">https://django-mssql.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ ,
MIT-licensed) which was created by Michael Manfre

I am currently exploring django-pymssql, django-mssql, and django-pyodbc-azure to see which adapter(s) can we adopt to provide Django and MSSQL/Azure SQL support. Do have any opinions as to which one(s) should we contribute to eventually? 
 
Michael, Aymeric and me are Django development team members.

Personally, I've been working on stabilizing the lower layers by
following a "yak shaving" non-strategy:

We (the pymssql team) realised the official pymssql Windows binaries
(in particular the FreeTDS libraries) we published when releasing
pymssql 2.1.1 don't link in a SSL implementation and so they aren't
usable to actually connect to Azure even if the pymssql code iself has
such ability.

 I looked around and it seems like this problem was fixed on this page by Christoph Gohlke from University of California, Irvine: <a href="http://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/#pymssql" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lfd.uci.edu%2F~gohlke%2Fpythonlibs%2F%23pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFiV9soblLqtIT8rRGdZZW2qz2CDw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lfd.uci.edu%2F~gohlke%2Fpythonlibs%2F%23pymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFiV9soblLqtIT8rRGdZZW2qz2CDw&#39;;return true;">http://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/#pymssql. I downloaded pymssql from here and it seemed like it links the SSL implementations. I also documented the procedure <a href="https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql-database-develop-python-simple-windows/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fazure.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdocumentation%2Farticles%2Fsql-database-develop-python-simple-windows%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF59WrjIiI16PaM1zASg6rE1_aUxQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fazure.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdocumentation%2Farticles%2Fsql-database-develop-python-simple-windows%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF59WrjIiI16PaM1zASg6rE1_aUxQ&#39;;return true;">here: <a href="https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql-database-develop-python-simple-windows/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fazure.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdocumentation%2Farticles%2Fsql-database-develop-python-simple-windows%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF59WrjIiI16PaM1zASg6rE1_aUxQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fazure.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdocumentation%2Farticles%2Fsql-database-develop-python-simple-windows%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF59WrjIiI16PaM1zASg6rE1_aUxQ&#39;;return true;">https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql-database-develop-python-simple-windows/


This, plus the fact that the manual process of creating the actual
matrix of Windows deliverables is a bit tedious led me to try using
the AppVeyor.com hosted Windows CI platform (free for open source
projects) to test and actually build the binaries. The work in
progress on this can be seen at
<a href="https://github.com/ramiro/pymssql/tree/appveyor" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Framiro%2Fpymssql%2Ftree%2Fappveyor\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFdtEt1uS3mbX03VAAU6_ZMsVa9ZA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Framiro%2Fpymssql%2Ftree%2Fappveyor\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFdtEt1uS3mbX03VAAU6_ZMsVa9ZA&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/ramiro/pymssql/tree/appveyor and
<a href="https://ci.appveyor.com/project/ramiro/pymssql" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fci.appveyor.com%2Fproject%2Framiro%2Fpymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG_lvC-I5YshbCIXo5wUns_wrCZSg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fci.appveyor.com%2Fproject%2Framiro%2Fpymssql\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG_lvC-I5YshbCIXo5wUns_wrCZSg&#39;;return true;">https://ci.appveyor.com/project/ramiro/pymssql

(When working on pymssql 2.1.1 at some point I created a free Azure
account with my credit card, tested (on Linux) the pymssql
implementation of connection changes needed to get it to work against
Azure's SQL Server and cancelled it before it started billing.)

Do you still need Azure credits to run Azure SQL for free, I can try to get some free credits for you and the FreeTDS and pymssql team depending on the need. 
 
So, this led me to start contributing to FreeTDS so to get it back to
build cleanly on Windows (work partially included with the 0.95
release back in June) and to also get it built/tested using
AppVeyor.com using the experience gained with pymssql. This has been
already merged in the current FreeTDS development code and allows the
maintainer and contributors to work without access to Windows/SQL
Server licenses (my case).

- <a href="https://ci.appveyor.com/project/freetds/freetds" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fci.appveyor.com%2Fproject%2Ffreetds%2Ffreetds\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEysS3dOaTbpzBOCtYmo8VakAldAg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fci.appveyor.com%2Fproject%2Ffreetds%2Ffreetds\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEysS3dOaTbpzBOCtYmo8VakAldAg&#39;;return true;">https://ci.appveyor.com/project/freetds/freetds
- <a href="https://github.com/FreeTDS/freetds/commit/3db5caa48f281f3558d4031cb5a0f0d8e8eef28c" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FFreeTDS%2Ffreetds%2Fcommit%2F3db5caa48f281f3558d4031cb5a0f0d8e8eef28c\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFccT5WUrPjNrRNEvI6YD1fmPB9YQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FFreeTDS%2Ffreetds%2Fcommit%2F3db5caa48f281f3558d4031cb5a0f0d8e8eef28c\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFccT5WUrPjNrRNEvI6YD1fmPB9YQ&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/FreeTDS/freetds/commit/3db5caa48f281f3558d4031cb5a0f0d8e8eef28c 
 
  This is great to hear. Getting it on Appveyor definitely makes it easy to build on Windows. 
 
I know MS dropped support of the DB-Library (and hence the API it
provides, of which FreeTDS is a open source implementation) back in
the SQL Server 2005 times. That's why I ask if this stack has any
chance of getting some  support from Microsoft.

We are very much looking at providing support(as you can tell) from our documentation mentioned above. We are currently in the prioritization stage and would love to discuss some of the things you need support for. As for now, we feel Django is a good place to start, as there is customer demand and we are falling behind. Would have a document which highlights the todo feature list where you need help on? I can pass it on to my team to get some responses so that we can get the ball rolling.

 
Personal motivation for this is simply to get Django (running on
Linux) + SQL Server to be a viable choice, even when I currently have
no actual need of this. I was one of the two developers behind the
original django-pyodbc project which had reached "almost full Django
test suite passing" status back in the Django 1.0 & 1.1 (2008-2009)
times, but abandoned it when discoverd (by logging the traffic with
SQL Servr tools) that the combination of pyodbc + Linux ODBC stack
meant the queries were sent twice to the DB server, see
<a href="https://code.google.com/p/django-pyodbc/issues/detail?id=16" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://code.google.com/p/django-pyodbc/issues/detail?id\07516&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://code.google.com/p/django-pyodbc/issues/detail?id\07516&#39;;return true;">https://code.google.com/p/django-pyodbc/issues/detail?id=16 . This is
also why I started considering a FreeTDS-based solution a better
technical choice.

 

That is a great find. I actually was not aware of that. The good news for the Linux side of the story here is that we are releasing a new Linux ODBC driver in the next 2 months. It would be great if we can test this out and see how it goes. 

I'm posting a message to the FreeTDS mailing list later today pointing
to Meet's post which opened this thread.

I look forward to the response :) Please let me know if you have any questions 

Regards,

--
Ramiro Morales
@ramiromorales

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