JVM Expert Group for Dynamic Scripting Languages

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JVM Expert Group for Dynamic Scripting Languages

Frank Cohen
"Giland Bracha", http://java.sun.com/people/gracha made a  
presentation at the 'JAOO conference", http://www.jaoo.org on changes  
Sun wants to make to the Java Virtual Machine (JVM) to encourage and  
support scripting language projects (Jython, Groovy, Ruby,  
ECMAScript) running on the JVM. Giland has a funny wit to his  
presentation style and left me with the impression that he is the  
only one at Sun assigned to this task. "If he is the only one then he  
is the best choice," remarked Jim Hugunin. Giland reports that he  
will take invokedynamic and other extensions to the JVM through the  
Java Community Process (JCP) and that he is looking for people to be  
part of the experts group. I'm willing to participate but I'm not a  
VM guy. I told Giland that I would search for someone to volunteer  
for the Jython effort. Any ideas?

-Frank

---
Frank Cohen, Raining Data, http://www.RainingData.com, phone: 408 236  
7604
Author of "Java Testing and Design: From Unit Tests to Automated Web  
Tests"
from Prentice Hall, details at http://thebook.pushtotest.com




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RE: JVM Expert Group for Dynamic Scripting Languages

Luis Sérgio Oliveira
Hi Frank,

as much as I look I can't find the weblog of Mr Bracha.
Isn't it Gilad Bracha? I've found his web site: http://bracha.org/,
but, nothing there about Sun intentions on Java support for
dynamic languages...

There are two important signs from Sun:
* http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=223 - JSR 223: Scripting for the
  JavaTM Platform
* https://coyote.dev.java.net/ - java's dynamic language support in
  NetBeans (currently Jython and Groovy)

What is invokedynamic? --> herr, google provides answer:
http://www.jaoo.org/speakers/show_speaker.jsp?oid=71 
http://blogs.msdn.com/cyrusn/archive/2005/06/29/433933.aspx

Yeap, this would make life easier to Jython developers.

Best regards / Beste Grüße / Cumprimentos,

Luis Sergio Oliveira


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Cohen
Sent: quarta-feira, 28 de Setembro de 2005 14:16
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Jython-dev] JVM Expert Group for Dynamic Scripting Languages


"Giland Bracha", http://java.sun.com/people/gracha made a  
presentation at the 'JAOO conference", http://www.jaoo.org on changes  
Sun wants to make to the Java Virtual Machine (JVM) to encourage and  
support scripting language projects (Jython, Groovy, Ruby,  
ECMAScript) running on the JVM. Giland has a funny wit to his  
presentation style and left me with the impression that he is the  
only one at Sun assigned to this task. "If he is the only one then he  
is the best choice," remarked Jim Hugunin. Giland reports that he  
will take invokedynamic and other extensions to the JVM through the  
Java Community Process (JCP) and that he is looking for people to be  
part of the experts group. I'm willing to participate but I'm not a  
VM guy. I told Giland that I would search for someone to volunteer  
for the Jython effort. Any ideas?

-Frank

---
Frank Cohen, Raining Data, http://www.RainingData.com, phone: 408 236  
7604
Author of "Java Testing and Design: From Unit Tests to Automated Web  
Tests"
from Prentice Hall, details at http://thebook.pushtotest.com




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Re: JVM Expert Group for Dynamic Scripting Languages

Sean McGrath
Gilad was at the meeting organised by Tim Bray in Sun to do with Dynamic
Languages
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/12/08/DynamicJava

Sean


Luis Sérgio Oliveira wrote:

>Hi Frank,
>
>as much as I look I can't find the weblog of Mr Bracha.
>Isn't it Gilad Bracha? I've found his web site: http://bracha.org/,
>but, nothing there about Sun intentions on Java support for
>dynamic languages...
>
>There are two important signs from Sun:
>* http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=223 - JSR 223: Scripting for the
>  JavaTM Platform
>* https://coyote.dev.java.net/ - java's dynamic language support in
>  NetBeans (currently Jython and Groovy)
>
>What is invokedynamic? --> herr, google provides answer:
>http://www.jaoo.org/speakers/show_speaker.jsp?oid=71 
>http://blogs.msdn.com/cyrusn/archive/2005/06/29/433933.aspx
>
>Yeap, this would make life easier to Jython developers.
>
>Best regards / Beste Grüße / Cumprimentos,
>
>Luis Sergio Oliveira
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Cohen
>Sent: quarta-feira, 28 de Setembro de 2005 14:16
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: [Jython-dev] JVM Expert Group for Dynamic Scripting Languages
>
>
>"Giland Bracha", http://java.sun.com/people/gracha made a  
>presentation at the 'JAOO conference", http://www.jaoo.org on changes  
>Sun wants to make to the Java Virtual Machine (JVM) to encourage and  
>support scripting language projects (Jython, Groovy, Ruby,  
>ECMAScript) running on the JVM. Giland has a funny wit to his  
>presentation style and left me with the impression that he is the  
>only one at Sun assigned to this task. "If he is the only one then he  
>is the best choice," remarked Jim Hugunin. Giland reports that he  
>will take invokedynamic and other extensions to the JVM through the  
>Java Community Process (JCP) and that he is looking for people to be  
>part of the experts group. I'm willing to participate but I'm not a  
>VM guy. I told Giland that I would search for someone to volunteer  
>for the Jython effort. Any ideas?
>
>-Frank
>
>---
>Frank Cohen, Raining Data, http://www.RainingData.com, phone: 408 236  
>7604
>Author of "Java Testing and Design: From Unit Tests to Automated Web  
>Tests"
>from Prentice Hall, details at http://thebook.pushtotest.com
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>This SF.Net email is sponsored by:
>Power Architecture Resource Center: Free content, downloads, discussions,
>and more. http://solutions.newsforge.com/ibmarch.tmpl
>_______________________________________________
>Jython-dev mailing list
>[hidden email]
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-dev
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>This SF.Net email is sponsored by:
>Power Architecture Resource Center: Free content, downloads, discussions,
>and more. http://solutions.newsforge.com/ibmarch.tmpl
>_______________________________________________
>Jython-dev mailing list
>[hidden email]
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-dev
>
>
>  
>



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Re: JVM Expert Group for Dynamic Scripting Languages

Samuele Pedroni
In reply to this post by Frank Cohen
Frank Cohen wrote:

> "Giland Bracha", http://java.sun.com/people/gracha made a  
> presentation at the 'JAOO conference", http://www.jaoo.org on changes  
> Sun wants to make to the Java Virtual Machine (JVM) to encourage and  
> support scripting language projects (Jython, Groovy, Ruby,  
> ECMAScript) running on the JVM. Giland has a funny wit to his  
> presentation style and left me with the impression that he is the  
> only one at Sun assigned to this task. "If he is the only one then he  
> is the best choice," remarked Jim Hugunin. Giland reports that he  
> will take invokedynamic and other extensions to the JVM through the  
> Java Community Process (JCP) and that he is looking for people to be  
> part of the experts group. I'm willing to participate but I'm not a  
> VM guy. I told Giland that I would search for someone to volunteer  
> for the Jython effort. Any ideas?
>
I think from the Python/Jython side I may still be the right person,
OTOH it depends on what are the demands time/travel wise, I'm europe
based/bound and other considerations (like legal IP issues).

Regards, Samuele Pedroni


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Re: JVM Expert Group for Dynamic Scripting Languages

Frank Cohen
Hi Samuele: How about if I propose both you and I to Gilad? I'm based  
in San Jose (so is Gilad) and ex-Sun and can handle the California-
local-political stuff. I'm not a JVM guy and just a so-so coder - so  
that would be your focus. What do you think? -Frank




On Sep 29, 2005, at 9:45 AM, Samuele Pedroni wrote:

> Frank Cohen wrote:
>
>
>> "Giland Bracha", http://java.sun.com/people/gracha made a  
>> presentation at the 'JAOO conference", http://www.jaoo.org on  
>> changes  Sun wants to make to the Java Virtual Machine (JVM) to  
>> encourage and  support scripting language projects (Jython,  
>> Groovy, Ruby,  ECMAScript) running on the JVM. Giland has a funny  
>> wit to his  presentation style and left me with the impression  
>> that he is the  only one at Sun assigned to this task. "If he is  
>> the only one then he  is the best choice," remarked Jim Hugunin.  
>> Giland reports that he  will take invokedynamic and other  
>> extensions to the JVM through the  Java Community Process (JCP)  
>> and that he is looking for people to be  part of the experts  
>> group. I'm willing to participate but I'm not a  VM guy. I told  
>> Giland that I would search for someone to volunteer  for the  
>> Jython effort. Any ideas?
>>
>>
> I think from the Python/Jython side I may still be the right  
> person, OTOH it depends on what are the demands time/travel wise,  
> I'm europe based/bound and other considerations (like legal IP  
> issues).
>
> Regards, Samuele Pedroni
>
>



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Re: JVM Expert Group for Dynamic Scripting Languages

Frank Cohen
In reply to this post by Sean McGrath
Hi Sean: Gilad brought up the meeting and was somewhat snide about  
Jython by indicating there was no strong JVM representation for  
Jython at that meeting. The best we can expect from Gilad is to have  
Samuel rationalize Gilad's changes to the VM and make sure these  
changes don't stop some change in a later Jython. -Frank





On Sep 29, 2005, at 5:06 AM, Sean McGrath wrote:

> Gilad was at the meeting organised by Tim Bray in Sun to do with  
> Dynamic Languages
> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/12/08/DynamicJava
>
> Sean
>
>
> Luis Sérgio Oliveira wrote:
>
>
>> Hi Frank,
>>
>> as much as I look I can't find the weblog of Mr Bracha. Isn't it  
>> Gilad Bracha? I've found his web site: http://bracha.org/, but,  
>> nothing there about Sun intentions on Java support for dynamic  
>> languages...
>>
>> There are two important signs from Sun:
>> * http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=223 - JSR 223: Scripting for  
>> the  JavaTM Platform
>> * https://coyote.dev.java.net/ - java's dynamic language support  
>> in  NetBeans (currently Jython and Groovy)
>>
>> What is invokedynamic? --> herr, google provides answer: http://
>> www.jaoo.org/speakers/show_speaker.jsp?oid=71 http://
>> blogs.msdn.com/cyrusn/archive/2005/06/29/433933.aspx
>>
>> Yeap, this would make life easier to Jython developers.
>>
>> Best regards / Beste Grüße / Cumprimentos,
>>
>> Luis Sergio Oliveira
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:jython-dev-
>> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Cohen
>> Sent: quarta-feira, 28 de Setembro de 2005 14:16
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [Jython-dev] JVM Expert Group for Dynamic Scripting  
>> Languages
>>
>>
>> "Giland Bracha", http://java.sun.com/people/gracha made a  
>> presentation at the 'JAOO conference", http://www.jaoo.org on  
>> changes  Sun wants to make to the Java Virtual Machine (JVM) to  
>> encourage and  support scripting language projects (Jython,  
>> Groovy, Ruby,  ECMAScript) running on the JVM. Giland has a funny  
>> wit to his  presentation style and left me with the impression  
>> that he is the  only one at Sun assigned to this task. "If he is  
>> the only one then he  is the best choice," remarked Jim Hugunin.  
>> Giland reports that he  will take invokedynamic and other  
>> extensions to the JVM through the  Java Community Process (JCP)  
>> and that he is looking for people to be  part of the experts  
>> group. I'm willing to participate but I'm not a  VM guy. I told  
>> Giland that I would search for someone to volunteer  for the  
>> Jython effort. Any ideas?
>>
>> -Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank Cohen, Raining Data, http://www.RainingData.com, phone: 408  
>> 236  7604
>> Author of "Java Testing and Design: From Unit Tests to Automated  
>> Web  Tests"
>> from Prentice Hall, details at http://thebook.pushtotest.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by:
>> Power Architecture Resource Center: Free content, downloads,  
>> discussions,
>> and more. http://solutions.newsforge.com/ibmarch.tmpl
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jython-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-dev
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by:
>> Power Architecture Resource Center: Free content, downloads,  
>> discussions,
>> and more. http://solutions.newsforge.com/ibmarch.tmpl
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jython-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-dev
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by:
> Power Architecture Resource Center: Free content, downloads,  
> discussions,
> and more. http://solutions.newsforge.com/ibmarch.tmpl
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-dev
>
>



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jci

Mark Proctor-4
Would be good if Jython could support this:
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/jci/

Makes it easier for applications like Drools, which try to work with
multiple language implementations.

Mark


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Re: JVM Expert Group for Dynamic Scripting Languages

Sean McGrath
In reply to this post by Frank Cohen
Frank Cohen wrote:

> Hi Sean: Gilad brought up the meeting and was somewhat snide about  
> Jython by indicating there was no strong JVM representation for  
> Jython at that meeting. The best we can expect from Gilad is to have  
> Samuel rationalize Gilad's changes to the VM and make sure these  
> changes don't stop some change in a later Jython. -Frank

Frank,

I'm a bit surprised by that given the amount of time Samuele spent at
the whiteboard explaining how Jython's implementation
uses various JVM facilities! Jython got at least as much airplay as
Groovy or Perl/Parrot at the meeting.

As I recall (and I ain't no JVM guy) the essence of the discussion was
that if the JVM was to be changed (i.e. a new opcode), the one that
would make the biggest contribution to all dynamic languages would be
dynamic lookup.

Sean



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Re: JVM Expert Group for Dynamic Scripting Languages

Frank Cohen
Like I said, it struck me as a snide comment. Perhaps that's what it  
takes to get past Gilad's vetting. Anyway, Gilad is going to change  
the VM and Jython benefits. -Frank




On Oct 5, 2005, at 4:12 AM, Sean McGrath wrote:

> Frank Cohen wrote:
>
>
>> Hi Sean: Gilad brought up the meeting and was somewhat snide  
>> about  Jython by indicating there was no strong JVM representation  
>> for  Jython at that meeting. The best we can expect from Gilad is  
>> to have  Samuel rationalize Gilad's changes to the VM and make  
>> sure these  changes don't stop some change in a later Jython. -Frank
>>
>
> Frank,
>
> I'm a bit surprised by that given the amount of time Samuele spent  
> at the whiteboard explaining how Jython's implementation
> uses various JVM facilities! Jython got at least as much airplay as  
> Groovy or Perl/Parrot at the meeting.
>
> As I recall (and I ain't no JVM guy) the essence of the discussion  
> was that if the JVM was to be changed (i.e. a new opcode), the one  
> that would make the biggest contribution to all dynamic languages  
> would be dynamic lookup.
>
> Sean
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by:
> Power Architecture Resource Center: Free content, downloads,  
> discussions,
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> _______________________________________________
> Jython-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-dev
>
>



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