Job - Salary Questions

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Job - Salary Questions

Roderick Llewellyn
Thanks those of you who responded to my questions about salary requirements
on application forms. I have been checking out some of the sites mentioned
by you. The Rands in Repose site has some good information, although it is
obviously directed towards young people who are now currently working,
basically the opposite of my situation. The salary.com site yields numbers
compatible with those I've given on these forms, though knowing how one fits
into salary.com's "Software Engineer X" (where X goes from 1 to 5) is
unclear.
I think I agree with those who say that if they ask for a number, one
shouldn't bother working for them. A firm's asking for these numbers
actually suggests insecurity on its part about what they should pay. Perhaps
they are just fishing for income information and don't intend to hire
anybody.
Again thanks,
Rod L.

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Re: Job - Salary Questions

Nathan R. Yergler-4
God forbid that I prolong this thread, but I'd like to offer a data
point which counters this.  I don't claim that it's representative,
only factual.

I was considering applying for a position with an east coast company
that does all Python, and they explicitly state that they require
"salary requirements" with resumes.  I was chatting with the CTO at
PyCon that year and expressed my reservations about that.  He
basically said, "look, it's in no one's interest for us to talk to
people who require a salary outside our means; it's not a good use of
time and it's not fiscally responsible for us to convince ourselves
that they're worth it and stretch ourselves too thin.  It's also not
in our best interest to pay someone just what they require if we want
to retain them.  So hopefully people see it as an opportunity to start
a mutually beneficial, trusting relationship."  I think the thing that
struck me was that I was assuming "the man" was out to get me, and
here the man was saying "we're trusting you to do our business, we
require some trust in return."

I applied, stated my requirements (with some justification), and
received an offer at the top end of the range I specified.  I wound up
turning it down for reasons unrelated to salary, but the experience
does make me approach that question differently these days.

FWIW,

Nathan


On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Roderick Llewellyn
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks those of you who responded to my questions about salary requirements
> on application forms. I have been checking out some of the sites mentioned
> by you. The Rands in Repose site has some good information, although it is
> obviously directed towards young people who are now currently working,
> basically the opposite of my situation. The salary.com site yields numbers
> compatible with those I've given on these forms, though knowing how one fits
> into salary.com's "Software Engineer X" (where X goes from 1 to 5) is
> unclear.
> I think I agree with those who say that if they ask for a number, one
> shouldn't bother working for them. A firm's asking for these numbers
> actually suggests insecurity on its part about what they should pay. Perhaps
> they are just fishing for income information and don't intend to hire
> anybody.
> Again thanks,
> Rod L.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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Re: Job - Salary Questions

Jason Culverhouse
Adding my thoughts and 15 years of being on both sides of the table.

This is a generalization to benefit  the people who ask questions
like this on the list. You are getting as a professional, and you  
should be
treated as one. You should feel confident that you are being compensated
fairly, everything being equal, vast salary differences are  
discrimination.
Good companies should be methodical in setting compensation.  Bigger
companies are going to use a real compensation survey. Understand
that compensation is more than "salary".

On Oct 27, 2009, at 7:28 PM, Nathan Yergler wrote:

> God forbid that I prolong this thread, but I'd like to offer a data
> point which counters this.  I don't claim that it's representative,
> only factual.
>
> I was considering applying for a position with an east coast company
> that does all Python, and they explicitly state that they require
> "salary requirements" with resumes.
>

Here is a fictionalized "I"  and "you" as both candidate and hiring  
manager

"I" would never put this kind of requirement on a "position" (if you
see one it is usually for some "legal" reason).  The main reason being
that the interview process is part of placing "you" in an organization,
the last thing "I" am thinking about is can I afford "you" in dollar  
terms.

As a person interviewing, I would hesitate to declare any salary
requirement before an interview.  I wouldn't want money to look
like a motivator. When you go on an interview you need to decide if
you want to work at the company and this is going to change your
perception of what you should be paid.

Back to manager... I usually give the candidate two choices:

1) tell me what you make
2) tell me what you want to make

Some people are uncomfortable with one of these choices so
I always feel it is best to give them an option.  If you are
uncomfortable with both you probably didn't make to this step.

If I have interviewed you and looked over your resume
my mental number should be pretty close to what you state.

What happens next really depends on the size of the organization.
In all cases understand that they never want the chart of
salary/title/years of experience to look like a scatter chart.
This really sets the bounds of what can be offered by a company.
This "magic box" is going to differ based on the stage, size,
industry, region, benefits package, etc.

In a small organization, I could put together an offer in 10 minutes.

At a big company, I would go to "the person who understands the magic  
box"
and get a range that can be offered.  This range is going to cover  
salary,
title, and stock.  Once I have this range I have to close you within
the range otherwise I have to climb a mountain to get it changed.

The moral here is that your money, motivation, and your interview skills
are going to put you in that sweet spot of "hire".

> I applied, stated my requirements (with some justification), and
> received an offer at the top end of the range I specified.  I wound up
> turning it down for reasons unrelated to salary, but the experience
> does make me approach that question differently these days.
>

FWTW - If you get what you asked for, you probably didn't ask for  
enough.

> FWIW,
>
> Nathan

Jason


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Re: Job - Salary Questions

Aahz
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009, Jason Culverhouse wrote:
>
> FWTW - If you get what you asked for, you probably didn't ask for  
> enough.

So far, my history has been that I probably didn't ask for "enough",
partly because I've taken a fair number of jobs where there was at least
one obvious barrier to my doing well in the position (for example, my
first job at Borland they were hesitant to hire me for a phone tech
support position because of my hearing impairment).  I'm also not much
for trying to maximize the money I'm getting so long as what I'm getting
isn't too far out of line for my experience compared to other people.  So
I've never bargained; I've just taken whatever offer has been given.

OTOH, I have also been mostly fortunate that most of my previous
employers have been comfortable giving me large raises after I've
demonstrated my worth.
--
Aahz ([hidden email])           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"You could make Eskimos emigrate to the Sahara by vigorously arguing --
at hundreds of screens' length -- for the wonder, beauty, and utility of
snow."  --PNH to rb in r.a.sf.f
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