Jython 2.2 Beta1

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Jython 2.2 Beta1

fwierzbicki@gmail.com
The Jython development team is proud to announce the release of Jython
2.2's first beta!

Get it here: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=12867&package_id=12218&release_id=485053

Install like this:
java -jar java -jar jython_installer-2.2b1.jar

Cheers!

-Frank Wierzbicki

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Re: Jython 2.2 Beta1

Roger Marquis
> The Jython development team is proud to announce the release of Jython
> 2.2's first beta! Get it here:
> <http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=12867&package_id=12218&release_id=485053>

The installer works _great_, though it could be more user-friendly if
packaged as a self-contained shar script, and/or rpm/deb/pkg/...

Jython/c itself, however, still has some apparently Windows-centric
behaviors that will continue to hamper cross-platform adoption:

  * Cache and other temporary files are written in application or user
  home directories.  This contradicts Unix/Linux conventions which
  require shared applications to reside in directories writable only
  by root.

    Solution: Use only /tmp, /var/tmp, or /var/jython for temporary or
    transient files.  Persistent writable directories should adopt
    standards set by other OSS, /{var/,}tmp/.jython_${USER}, and
    specify a secure umask (077).

  * Executable files are not installed in a standard $PATH'ed
  directory.

    Solution: 'ln -s $JYTHON_HOME/jython{,c} /usr/local/bin'

  * Class file names contain metacharacters ($).

    Solution: Do not use spaces or other metacharacters in any file or
    directory name.

  * Non-license-related text confounds the license agreement page.

    Solution: Move these to the credits/finish page.

  * Still runs slow.

    One Solution: Eliminate support for Java versions that are now rare
    i.e, pre-1.4.

  * Documentation is still wholly insufficient and often internally
  inconsistent.

    One Solution: Start with a freshly structured redesign and open it
    to CVS or Wiki updates, Reduce or eliminate the Windows-centric
    sections, and add or clarify step-by-step instructions for
    first-time users.

  * No jython or jythonc man() pages are installed.

  * Lacks an industry sponsor.

    Solution: Print business cards, compile a portfolio, and start
    making phone calls...

These issues could well be behind Sun's push for adoption of Groovy
instead of Jython as the de-facto scripting language for Java, even
though Groovy is hardly a 'scripting' language in the normal sense.

None of this should be regarded as being in any way ingrateful for the
long hours and fantastic work of Jython volunteers.  I, for one, am
very grateful despite not yet having been able to incorporate a
jython-generated jar into any projects.  None of us want to see all
this good work go for naught...  And yes, I would like to help,
particularly with the website / wiki / documentation.  Project
coordinators please feel free to contact me off-list.

IMO,

--
Roger Marquis
Roble Systems Consulting
http://www.roble.com/

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Re: Jython 2.2 Beta1

Pekka Klärck
2007/2/9, Roger Marquis <[hidden email]>:
> Jython/c itself, however, still has some apparently Windows-centric
> behaviors that will continue to hamper cross-platform adoption:

I've also noticed that Jython installer doesn't follow unix
conventions. Could you submit all concreate issues into [1]? I've
noticed myself that issues submitted there tend to get fixed -- see
for example Windows installer related [2] that was fixed for beta. Of
course you can then also submit fixes into [3] if you have something
available (should start doing that myself too...).

[1] http://jython.org/bugs
[2] http://jython.org/bugs/1565629
[3] http://jython.org/patches

Thanks a lot for the developemt team for the beta!

Cheers,
    .peke

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Re: Jython 2.2 Beta1

fwierzbicki@gmail.com
In reply to this post by Roger Marquis
On 2/8/07, Roger Marquis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > The Jython development team is proud to announce the release of Jython
> > 2.2's first beta! Get it here:
> > <http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=12867&package_id=12218&release_id=485053>
>
> The installer works _great_, though it could be more user-friendly if
> packaged as a self-contained shar script, and/or rpm/deb/pkg/...
When we get to a GA, I'm going to at least make sure there is an rpm.
I work at Red Hat and I am sitting next to at least one RPM expert,
and I'd like to see Jython 2.2 make it into the next Fedora.  I'll
also be very willing to help with anyone who wants to create a deb,
ebuild, pkg, etc, but probably not until we are in the "release
candidate" phases.

>   * Cache and other temporary files are written in application or user
>   home directories.  This contradicts Unix/Linux conventions which
>   require shared applications to reside in directories writable only
>   by root.
There are options to either turn off the cache or send them to a
particular directory.  However these options do need better docs and
could perhaps have better defaults when in *nix land.

>     Solution: Use only /tmp, /var/tmp, or /var/jython for temporary or
>     transient files.  Persistent writable directories should adopt
>     standards set by other OSS, /{var/,}tmp/.jython_${USER}, and
>     specify a secure umask (077).
>   * Executable files are not installed in a standard $PATH'ed
>   directory.
>
>     Solution: 'ln -s $JYTHON_HOME/jython{,c} /usr/local/bin'
>
Ah but we don't want to be completely *nix centric either -- but
again, sensible defaults are a good suggestion.

>   * Class file names contain metacharacters ($).
The $ is common in .class files (for example inner classes use $).
Not sure if this one is a likely change.

>     Solution: Do not use spaces or other metacharacters in any file or
>     directory name.
This is just about $, right?

>   * Non-license-related text confounds the license agreement page.
I have to agree with this one, but I'm not a lawyer and CPython does
the exact same embedding of history and prior licenses.  Don't know if
we can easily change this.

>   * Still runs slow.
>
>     One Solution: Eliminate support for Java versions that are now rare
>     i.e, pre-1.4.
We will be doing this in the next release, but other than requiring a
higher minimum JDK/JRE, performance is not going to be specifically
addressed in this or the next release.  The one after that will
probably look hard at performance.

>   * Documentation is still wholly insufficient and often internally
>   inconsistent.
That is a fair assessment.  Want to help (I see below that you do --
the wiki is open to anyone, but I will need to document how to help
with the website).

>     One Solution: Start with a freshly structured redesign and open it
>     to CVS or Wiki updates, Reduce or eliminate the Windows-centric
>     sections, and add or clarify step-by-step instructions for
>     first-time users.
The new website has been moved to svn, and has been moved to a format
that is fairly easy to update (docutils/ReStructuredText) but I need
to put up some docs on how to update the website.

>   * No jython or jythonc man() pages are installed.
This will probably be included in the above-mentioned rpm.  I believe
ReStructuredText can be processed into man pages.

>   * Lacks an industry sponsor.
>
>     Solution: Print business cards, compile a portfolio, and start
>     making phone calls...
Phone calls eh?  :)

Eventually I hope to convince my own employer (Red Hat) to approve
some of my cycles for Jython -- and perhaps lend other support, but I
am still a little new at Red Hat... but with the fairly recent
addition of JBoss to the company, I probably have a business case to
make.

> These issues could well be behind Sun's push for adoption of Groovy
> instead of Jython as the de-facto scripting language for Java, even
> though Groovy is hardly a 'scripting' language in the normal sense.
You think Sun is really pushing here?  The just hired 2 guys to work
on JRuby and bundled an implementation of Javascript in Java6.  I
don't think Sun is playing favorites at this point.  I think they are
supporting Groovy, but I think they would like to see Jython succeed
as well.

> None of this should be regarded as being in any way ingrateful for the
> long hours and fantastic work of Jython volunteers.  I, for one, am
> very grateful despite not yet having been able to incorporate a
> jython-generated jar into any projects.  None of us want to see all
> this good work go for naught...  And yes, I would like to help,
> particularly with the website / wiki / documentation.  Project
> coordinators please feel free to contact me off-list.
Cool, I'm glad that you would like to help with the docs, they really
need it.  I prefer to keep discussions on-list if at all possible, in
case the discussion can help others.  I'll try to get some
website-updating instructions onto the site soon.

Regards,

-Frank

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Re: [Jython-dev] Jython 2.2 Beta1

Sean McGrath
[Roger Marquis]
>> These issues could well be behind Sun's push for adoption of Groovy
>> instead of Jython as the de-facto scripting language for Java, even
>> though Groovy is hardly a 'scripting' language in the normal sense.
>>    
[Frank Wierzbicki]
> You think Sun is really pushing here?  The just hired 2 guys to work
> on JRuby and bundled an implementation of Javascript in Java6.  I
> don't think Sun is playing favorites at this point.  I think they are
> supporting Groovy, but I think they would like to see Jython succeed
> as well.
>  
This is my assessment of Sun's position too based on some conversations
with Sun folk.
Sun are taking a "let a thousand flowers bloom" approach and letting
market forces/karma
work out where the centers (plural) of gravity will be in dynamic languages.

Bottom line: if "the community" can make Jython move forward, industry
sponsors
will follow. Momentum breeds momentum and all that.

Note also that we should not look sight of the indirect attention Jython
can get
as IronPython moves forward. (See today: Jon Udell:
http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/02/08/my-first-ironpython-application/).
I blogged it Jythonically here :
<a href="http://seanmcgrath.blogspot.com/2007_02_04_seanmcgrath_archive.html#5709267427074522898#5709267427074522898">http://seanmcgrath.blogspot.com/2007_02_04_seanmcgrath_archive.html#5709267427074522898#5709267427074522898

Side note: Lots of Barcamps going on around the world. Get ye to your
local BarCam and present ye
the wonders of Jython to all the assembled startups :-)

<a href="http://seanmcgrath.blogspot.com/2007_02_04_seanmcgrath_archive.html#8625207615248469362#8625207615248469362">http://seanmcgrath.blogspot.com/2007_02_04_seanmcgrath_archive.html#8625207615248469362#8625207615248469362

Sean


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Re: Jython 2.2 Beta1 - website broken?

fwierzbicki@gmail.com
In reply to this post by fwierzbicki@gmail.com
On 2/9/07, Philipp Walther <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I wanted to check out the changelog for this release, but I'm
> getting a 403 on http://www.jython.org/Project/index.html..
oops -- that's what I get for mucking with permissions at 3am -- sorry
- you should be able to see the site now.
>
> Any other way to get the changelog? (assuming there is one)
See the file NEWS in the root of a Jython install.

Thanks,

-Frank

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Re: Jython 2.2 Beta1

Kent Johnson
In reply to this post by fwierzbicki@gmail.com
Frank Wierzbicki wrote:
> The Jython development team is proud to announce the release of Jython
> 2.2's first beta!
>
> Get it here: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=12867&package_id=12218&release_id=485053
>
> Install like this:
> java -jar java -jar jython_installer-2.2b1.jar

I think one 'java -jar' is enough:

java -jar jython_installer-2.2b1.jar

Congratulations and thank you to Frank and all the other developers,
this is a watershed moment that has been a long time coming.

Kent


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Re: [Jython-announce] Jython 2.2 Beta1

fwierzbicki@gmail.com
On 2/9/07, Kent Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Install like this:
> > java -jar java -jar jython_installer-2.2b1.jar
>
> I think one 'java -jar' is enough:
>
> java -jar jython_installer-2.2b1.jar
haha- I broke the website too (fixed now).  I should avoid 3am work...

-Frank

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Re: Jython 2.2 Beta1

Charles Oliver Nutter-2
In reply to this post by Roger Marquis
Roger Marquis wrote:
>   * Lacks an industry sponsor.
>
>     Solution: Print business cards, compile a portfolio, and start
>     making phone calls...
>
> These issues could well be behind Sun's push for adoption of Groovy
> instead of Jython as the de-facto scripting language for Java, even
> though Groovy is hardly a 'scripting' language in the normal sense.

Sun is most definitely interested in pushing many alternative languages
for the JVM, and Jython, Groovy, and JRuby are equally considered (as
well as PHP, though that's a different sort of challenge). I think
however the perception of Jython as a dead project has really hurt it
over the past few years...getting your bloggers more vocal and your
releases more frequent (as well as your progress more rapid) would
really help cure this perception.

Is there something besides funded development time that would help
Jython move faster?

And seriously, many congratulations on the 2.2 beta...I'm going to plug
it hard.

- Charlie, JRuby Developer, Sun Engineer

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Re: [Jython-dev] Jython 2.2 Beta1

Leo User
Sun may be interested in taking Jython forward and so
am I.  Ive been working deligently on a "modernise
Jython" project.  I haven't decided on a home for this
yet but things are looking good.  Ive got 4 new
language features implemented, 3 passing unit tests. 1
at about 90%(the other 10% are because of jython silly
nits).  These would be features from 2.3 to 2.5(Id do
2.6 stuff but it isn't well defined).  Im in the next
phase, and after that it may be time to put some code
out there.

leouser

--- Charles Oliver Nutter <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Roger Marquis wrote:
> >   * Lacks an industry sponsor.
> >
> >     Solution: Print business cards, compile a
> portfolio, and start
> >     making phone calls...
> >
> > These issues could well be behind Sun's push for
> adoption of Groovy
> > instead of Jython as the de-facto scripting
> language for Java, even
> > though Groovy is hardly a 'scripting' language in
> the normal sense.
>
> Sun is most definitely interested in pushing many
> alternative languages
> for the JVM, and Jython, Groovy, and JRuby are
> equally considered (as
> well as PHP, though that's a different sort of
> challenge). I think
> however the perception of Jython as a dead project
> has really hurt it
> over the past few years...getting your bloggers more
> vocal and your
> releases more frequent (as well as your progress
> more rapid) would
> really help cure this perception.
>
> Is there something besides funded development time
> that would help
> Jython move faster?
>
> And seriously, many congratulations on the 2.2
> beta...I'm going to plug
> it hard.
>
> - Charlie, JRuby Developer, Sun Engineer
>
>
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>
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>



 
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