Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
30 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto

Stephen McInerney
Folks,

Several people had suggested a working discussion over dinner.
I asked around and Thu 4/27 7pm at Jing Jing Chinese restaurant works,
443 Emerson St, Palo Alto (walkable from Caltrain and Stanford).
(This is the day after the Wed Django meeting. TonyC is away from Fri 28th.)

Anyone who wants to come, please RSVP to me by Tuesday so I can make the
restaurant reservation.

I think we have so far:
* Definite: Stephen, TonyC, Dennis, probably Drew
* No response: Wes?, JJ?, Marilyn?, Rich Morin?, Neal?, Donna?, Brian?,
Walter?
* Can't: Aahz

Possible topics:
- what are the most urgent issues facing the group?
(there is a big diversity of opinion on what the urgent issues are. but it
ain't changing the name!)
- how might we get to resolutions from here? what is the group
decision-making process?
- does the current alternating location setup make sense?
(are there any firm alternative proposals? and how do we determine what
is best compromise for the entire (active) membership?)
- do we need a charter and elections for officers with a fixed-term?
- how we manage the agenda setting, webmastering and list admin?

(The intent is not to make decisions, but to capture all the points of
view.)

Regards,
Stephen


_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto

Stephen McInerney

RSVP to me *offlist* - people are already grumbling about list traffic
volume.


_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto

Shannon -jj Behrens
Sorry, I'm going to publicly say that it doesn't make much sense to
have a meeting if Wesley and Aahz aren't there :-/  Wesley's probably
busy as heck with his book.

-jj

On 4/23/06, Stephen McInerney <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> RSVP to me *offlist* - people are already grumbling about list traffic
> volume.
_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto

Aahz
On Mon, Apr 24, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> Sorry, I'm going to publicly say that it doesn't make much sense to
> have a meeting if Wesley and Aahz aren't there :-/  Wesley's probably
> busy as heck with his book.

My book keeps me pretty busy, too.  ;-)
--
Aahz ([hidden email])           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto

Stephen McInerney

My understanding from Aahz was August was the earliest he could make things
like this.
And I did contact him a couple of times.

No-one said Wes couldn't come - he had in fact been in favor of a weekday
meetup
when we suggested at Apr mtg. Let's let him reply for himself.

Who else is in then?

Stephen


_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Meetup re BayPIGgies organization pushed from 4/27

Stephen McInerney
In reply to this post by Stephen McInerney
Several people couldn't make Thu 4/27 so we will push this dinner meetup
to following week.

Tony are you back by Thu 5/4? Can you propose a date?
7pm in Jing Jing Palo Alto seems till good.

Stephen

>From: "Stephen McInerney" <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: [Baypiggies] Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm,Jing
>Jing, Palo Alto
>Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:27:47 -0700
>
>Folks,
>
>Several people had suggested a working discussion over dinner.
>I asked around and Thu 4/27 7pm at Jing Jing Chinese restaurant works,
>443 Emerson St, Palo Alto (walkable from Caltrain and Stanford).
>(This is the day after the Wed Django meeting. TonyC is away from Fri
>28th.)
>
>Anyone who wants to come, please RSVP to me by Tuesday so I can make the
>restaurant reservation.
>
>I think we have so far:
>* Definite: Stephen, TonyC, Dennis, probably Drew
>* No response: Wes?, JJ?, Marilyn?, Rich Morin?, Neal?, Donna?, Brian?,
>Walter?
>* Can't: Aahz
>
>Possible topics:
>- what are the most urgent issues facing the group?
>(there is a big diversity of opinion on what the urgent issues are. but it
>ain't changing the name!)
>- how might we get to resolutions from here? what is the group
>decision-making process?
>- does the current alternating location setup make sense?
>(are there any firm alternative proposals? and how do we determine what
>is best compromise for the entire (active) membership?)
>- do we need a charter and elections for officers with a fixed-term?
>- how we manage the agenda setting, webmastering and list admin?
>
>(The intent is not to make decisions, but to capture all the points of
>view.)
>
>Regards,
>Stephen
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Baypiggies mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto

Marilyn Davis
In reply to this post by Shannon -jj Behrens
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> Sorry, I'm going to publicly say that it doesn't make much sense to
> have a meeting if Wesley and Aahz aren't there :-/  Wesley's probably
> busy as heck with his book.

Wesley said he was stepping down.

Can Wesley please clarify: what were his duties and which of these he
is relinquishing?

Can we know what are the responsibilities of each person who has
accepted responsibility?

Are we thinking about making a system where the responsibilities for
maintaining the group move in an orderly manner from person to person
on a time schedule rather than sit on one person for life?

Marilyn



>
> -jj
>
> On 4/23/06, Stephen McInerney <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > RSVP to me *offlist* - people are already grumbling about list traffic
> > volume.
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

--

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto

wesley chun
my roles for baypiggies have been:

- organize talks & invite speakers
- setup/maintain locations with hosts
- buy snacks and collect donations
- introduce spakers and time-moderate meetings
- update/maintain the website
- manage/moderate mailing list (rejecting spam, etc.)
- keep meetings going even if there is no topic
- collate and hand out swag to speakers
- hang/tape up signs at sites to direct folks to meeting room
- organize offsite meetings when main site(s) aren't available
- manage recruiters who want to "sell their wares"

if i can be just a "civilian" for now, that would be best, otherwise
i'll try to pick up something that volunteers have not taken off the
plate.

cheers,
-wesley

On 4/24/06, Marilyn Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> > Sorry, I'm going to publicly say that it doesn't make much sense to
> > have a meeting if Wesley and Aahz aren't there :-/  Wesley's probably
> > busy as heck with his book.
>
> Wesley said he was stepping down.
>
> Can Wesley please clarify: what were his duties and which of these he
> is relinquishing?
>
> Can we know what are the responsibilities of each person who has
> accepted responsibility?
>
> Are we thinking about making a system where the responsibilities for
> maintaining the group move in an orderly manner from person to person
> on a time schedule rather than sit on one person for life?
>
> Marilyn
>
>
>
> >
> > -jj
> >
> > On 4/23/06, Stephen McInerney <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > RSVP to me *offlist* - people are already grumbling about list traffic
> > > volume.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
> --
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com
_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto

Aahz
In reply to this post by Marilyn Davis
On Mon, Apr 24, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
>
> Can we know what are the responsibilities of each person who has
> accepted responsibility?

Well, I don't know that I can answer that question as phrased; I don't
consider myself as having accepted "responsibility" so much as simply
doing things that need done.  What I'm doing currently is

* Keeping the web site updated (sometimes -- it still hasn't been updated
for tomorrow night's meeting because it was down when I had time to do
it)

* Making formal e-mail/netnews announcements of BayPIGgies meetings

* Managing the list

* Generally kibitzing

The only responsibility I have accepted WRT the first three items is
formally informing the list if I stop doing those things and making some
minimal good-faith effort to find other people to do these things.

Note that I probably can't make the meeting next week, either, because I
have a friend flying in for the weekend.
--
Aahz ([hidden email])           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto

Dennis Reinhardt
In reply to this post by Marilyn Davis
[things which need to be done to allow Wesley to "become a civilian"]

>- organize talks & invite speakers
>- introduce sp[e]akers ...

I am willing to cover this up via planning doc in my sig below.  However, I
am organizing Topic Organizers, not speakers per se.  In cases where there
is more than one speaker, I think the topic organizer is in the best
position to introduce speakers.

To be specific, tomorrow night, I think it falls to JJ to introduce the
speaker insofar as he did much of the work in setting up the meeting.  If
he doesn't want to introduce, it would be his call as the organizer to
designate how this is handled.

There is no default moderator I am aware of and using the Topic Organizer
to moderate the meeting for the night seems to cover the next several meetings.

>... and time-moderate meetings

I did this at last IronPort meeting.  I see the Random Access/Mapping which
I would like to moderate as the final event so I serve as an advocate for
ending regular program on time.  Marilyn has expressed interest in time
moderation topics. ... further discussion useful.

>- setup/maintain locations with hosts
>- organize offsite meetings when main site(s) aren't available
>- hang/tape up signs at sites to direct folks to meeting room

There are some issues here with no clear owner yet imo.  Stephen is calling
an organizing meeting and this topic is included, as he has specifically
identified "current alternating location setup" as a discussion topic.

>- manage recruiters who want to "sell their wares"

The last can be done via Mapping/Random Access.  I can pick this up.

>- update/maintain the website
>- manage/moderate mailing list (rejecting spam, etc.)

Oh?  I thought Aazh had this responsibility/was doing both of these.  Donna
had volunteered to work on this.  But my sense is the job she would
do/tools used are enough different that a complete transfer makes more
sense than "participation".  One way or another, we may be able to cover this.

It would be great to see from Aazh what he is doing/wants to continue doing.

>- buy snacks and collect donations

Donna is starting this up at Google

>- keep meetings going even if there is no topic

I have a difference of opinion on this one.  If we don't have a topic, I
don't think we have a meeting.  I would want to put my energy into having
content in the meeting.  If there is no content, then cancel the meeting is
my feeling.

>- collate and hand out swag to speakers

Seems like another possible topic for Stephen's meeting.

>if i can be just a "civilian" for now, that would be best, otherwise
>i'll try to pick up something that volunteers have not taken off the
>plate.

This has been an excellent list.  Thanks for being explicit.
------------------------------------
| Dennis    | [hidden email]     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto

Marilyn Davis
In reply to this post by Stephen McInerney
Thank you Aahz and Wes for listing your contributions.  And thank you for doing them!

I'm remembering this message from JJ:

> Sorry, I'm going to publicly say that it doesn't make much sense to
> have a meeting if Wesley and Aahz aren't there :-/  Wesley's probably
> busy as heck with his book.
>
> -jj

What is missing from the lists of tasks is "decision-making".  How has that been happening so far?

I also remember that the poll and survey are considered "non-binding".  What is binding?

I find it uncomfortable for a big volunteer group to be in a position where they can't make a decision unless a specific 2 people are involved, specially when both are too busy writing books and having babies to participate.  Are we simply stuck?

If we find a way to unstick ourselves, I hope that we make some schedule where we rotate the duties, that no one holds a position of power and visibility for longer than a year or two.  

"Benevolent dictator" makes a lot of sense for a technical design or a programming language, but not for a big volunteer group.  Volunteer groups thrive on democracy.

Is "democracy" a forgotten art?

----- On Tuesday, April 25, 2006 [hidden email] wrote:

> [things which need to be done to allow Wesley to "become a civilian"]
>
>>- organize talks & invite speakers
>>- introduce sp[e]akers ...
>
> I am willing to cover this up via planning doc in my sig below.  However, I
> am organizing Topic Organizers, not speakers per se.  In cases where there
> is more than one speaker, I think the topic organizer is in the best
> position to introduce speakers.
>
> To be specific, tomorrow night, I think it falls to JJ to introduce the
> speaker insofar as he did much of the work in setting up the meeting.  If
> he doesn't want to introduce, it would be his call as the organizer to
> designate how this is handled.
>
> There is no default moderator I am aware of and using the Topic Organizer
> to moderate the meeting for the night seems to cover the next several meetings.
>
>>... and time-moderate meetings
>
> I did this at last IronPort meeting.  I see the Random Access/Mapping which
> I would like to moderate as the final event so I serve as an advocate for
> ending regular program on time.  Marilyn has expressed interest in time
> moderation topics. ... further discussion useful.

'Time moderation topics'?  I expressed interest in starting the meetings on time and will help with that if there is interest.  If the "topic organizer" runs the meeting, it will be late or not.

My dad used to say "I waste more time by being on time".  I think it is important to not waste the time of punctual people and I see no problem with late people missing something.  It seems the totally polite solution.

I am not attached to being the person who starts the meeting on time, but will do it if called on, for no more than a year or two.

>
>>- setup/maintain locations with hosts
>>- organize offsite meetings when main site(s) aren't available
>>- hang/tape up signs at sites to direct folks to meeting room

If there is a meeting-starter position, this sign duty should go along with it.

>
> There are some issues here with no clear owner yet imo.  Stephen is calling
> an organizing meeting and this topic is included, as he has specifically
> identified "current alternating location setup" as a discussion topic.
>
>>- manage recruiters who want to "sell their wares"
>
> The last can be done via Mapping/Random Access.  I can pick this up.
>
>>- update/maintain the website
>>- manage/moderate mailing list (rejecting spam, etc.)
>
> Oh?  I thought Aazh had this responsibility/was doing both of these.  Donna
> had volunteered to work on this.  But my sense is the job she would
> do/tools used are enough different that a complete transfer makes more
> sense than "participation".  One way or another, we may be able to cover this.
>
> It would be great to see from Aazh what he is doing/wants to continue doing.
>
>>- buy snacks and collect donations
>
> Donna is starting this up at Google
>
>>- keep meetings going even if there is no topic
>
> I have a difference of opinion on this one.  If we don't have a topic, I
> don't think we have a meeting.  I would want to put my energy into having
> content in the meeting.  If there is no content, then cancel the meeting is
> my feeling.

I totally agree with you, Dennis.  It is no fun to drive yourself to a meeting and discover that there is no content.

And, thank you for all you are doing for the group.

I am intrigued by Paul Gavin's generous offer:

> If people like it, I would be happy to buy the name for the group and
> host the site on my server in Santa Rosa; I run a Linux/Zope Server
> that hosts several sites already.

Do I remember that Dennis asked for the power to upload his working schedule to the web site?  That didn't happen?  And that's why he's using his company web space?  Maybe I got that all wrong?

I think it would be cool to have an alternate web space with the name pybay.xxx.  Short and sweet.  Maybe Dennis could upload his document there?  Maybe the baypiggies site could be echoed there.

Good luck to us!

Marilyn

>
>>- collate and hand out swag to speakers
>
> Seems like another possible topic for Stephen's meeting.
>
>>if i can be just a "civilian" for now, that would be best, otherwise
>>i'll try to pick up something that volunteers have not taken off the
>>plate.
>
> This has been an excellent list.  Thanks for being explicit.
> ------------------------------------
> | Dennis    | [hidden email]     |
> | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
> | http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
> ------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Meetup re BayPIGgies organization Thu 4/27, 7pm, Jing Jing, Palo Alto

Aahz
On Wed, Apr 26, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
>
> What is missing from the lists of tasks is "decision-making".  How has
> that been happening so far?

Decision?  What's that?  An appropriate description would be something
along the lines of loosely organized chaos.

> I also remember that the poll and survey are considered "non-binding".
> What is binding?

Getting enough people to agree.  My bias is toward not changing things.

> I find it uncomfortable for a big volunteer group to be in a position
> where they can't make a decision unless a specific 2 people are
> involved, specially when both are too busy writing books and having
> babies to participate.  Are we simply stuck?

Not from my POV.  But I don't think that just because a few people are
clamoring for change is a reason to let things move forward in a
different direction.

BTW, note that Danny is the primary contact for baypiggies.net and
Deirdre still owns the domain.

> If we find a way to unstick ourselves, I hope that we make some
> schedule where we rotate the duties, that no one holds a position of
> power and visibility for longer than a year or two.

That's an idea, but it also implies a lot more organization than I think
is likely to ever happen.

> "Benevolent dictator" makes a lot of sense for a technical design or
> a programming language, but not for a big volunteer group.  Volunteer
> groups thrive on democracy.

Not in my experience.  My experience is that volunteer groups thrive
on -- guess what? -- volunteers.  And unless the volunteer base is large
enough, consensus is usually more important than democracy.
--
Aahz ([hidden email])           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moving forward (was meetup ...)

Dennis Reinhardt
At 05:02 PM 4/27/2006, Aahz wrote:
>Aahz> My bias is toward not changing things.

My bias is towards finding changes which represents benefit and moving
forward in that direction.

>Not from my POV.  But I don't think that just because a few people are
>clamoring for change is a reason to let things move forward in a
>different direction.

"move forward", funny you should mention that...  Sorry, but forward
movement has already started.  Point: Google has started video recording
the technical part of our meetings and their site and will be posting the
recordings.  Video broadcasting of presentations is synergistic with
attracting more speakers and having a backlog of quality presentations
scheduled for our meetings.  Improvised, no-agenda meetings could well be
history at the Google site.

>BTW, note that Danny is the primary contact for baypiggies.net and
>Deirdre still owns the domain.

... and they are going to object to having BayPiggies meetings showcased to
the entire Bay Area and world?  Somehow, I rather doubt they will stop the
site from becoming a resource sponsoring quality presentations for the
entire Python community.

The "change" coming is better planned meetings.  Lead, follow, or get out
of the way.

>My experience is that volunteer groups thrive
>on -- guess what? -- volunteers.

+1

----------------------------------
| Dennis    | [hidden email]   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moving forward (was meetup ...)

Aahz
On Thu, Apr 27, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> At 05:02 PM 4/27/2006, Aahz wrote:
>>
>> My bias is toward not changing things.
>
> My bias is towards finding changes which represents benefit and moving
> forward in that direction.

You snipped enough context to radically change the meaning of what I
said.  I see no point in responding further.
--
Aahz ([hidden email])           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: organization, owners of responsibilities

Stephen McInerney
In reply to this post by Marilyn Davis
>From: Marilyn Davis <[hidden email]>

>What is missing from the lists of tasks is "decision-making".  How has that
>been happening so far?
>I also remember that the poll and survey are considered "non-binding".  
>What is binding?
>"Benevolent dictator" makes a lot of sense for a technical design or a
>programming language, but not for a big volunteer group.  Volunteer groups
>thrive on democracy.
>Is "democracy" a forgotten art?

Exactly. We all agree that consensus is desirable, when achievable. When
not, the people who own specific tasks make decisions as they see best. In
order to keep it running, those responsibilities are clearly defined for a
fixed term and theerafter rotated.
Where we differ is what are the mechanisms to attain the consensus, and who
gets to arbitrate
(this is NOT the list moderator's task).
Hashing every issue out on the list is not feasible and not scalable as you
move from 20 members who meet face-to-face in an SF coffee shop (2000) to
340 members widely distributed around the Bay Area (2006) and indeed the US.

>----- On Tuesday, April 25, 2006 [hidden email] wrote:
>
> > [things which need to be done to allow Wesley to "become a civilian"]
> >>... and time-moderate meetings
> > I did this at last IronPort meeting.  I see the Random Access/Mapping
>which
> > I would like to moderate as the final event so I serve as an advocate
>for
> > ending regular program on time.

I think Dennis has done a great job on that so far and I second him to
continue - if he wants.
Many other people esp. new or infrequent members expressed gratitude that
the random access allowed them to make themselves known and easily connect
with people and answers.

> >>- setup/maintain locations with hosts
> >>- organize offsite meetings when main site(s) aren't available
> >>- hang/tape up signs at sites to direct folks to meeting room
>
>If there is a meeting-starter position, this sign duty should go along with
>it.
Sounds like it falls under Logistics to me (security access, directions,
room confirmation, videoing...)?
Which is really a two-person job.

> >>- collate and hand out swag to speakers
> > Seems like another possible topic for Stephen's meeting.

Historically this very minor task was tied to O'Reilly (plus non-O'Reilly)
book reviews and was one of Wes's many responsibilities. In conversation
with Wes we also discussed e.g. putting all speakers for 2005 into a draw
for a couple of books. TonyC - do you want to own this one?

I have one side issue on that - I tried to hit up Pixar for a couple of
tshirts for the survey (I contacted Elizabeth Palmore 5 times), since they
do post jobs regularly now. Zero response. Very disappointed at Pixar.
I suggest we do have a charter that defines "corporate members or recruiters
agree that in return for access to the list and/or group, they will give us
small freebies (tshirts/books) in return".

> > There are some issues here with no clear owner yet imo.  Stephen is
>calling
> > an organizing meeting and this topic is included, as he has specifically
> > identified "current alternating location setup" as a discussion topic.

Unfortunately, not happening. I twice attempted to call an organizing
meeting since several people asked me to hold it, but then almost everyone
dropped out due to other commitments they had not mentioned.
- I will mix these topics into the Q&A at end of Thu May 11 survey
presentation, insofar as 15-20 minutes will allow us to at least touch on
the diversity of opinion on these matters. But the forming of consensus has
yet to emerge fully. Some people post very productive comments on the list,
but then other people complain about list volume or the topics... how to
accomodate these?
Many people are losing patience. Some are unsubscribing.
Is it time for a baypiggies-announce list? Or can we make decisions and get
back to the old ways.

> >>- update/maintain the website
> >>- manage/moderate mailing list (rejecting spam, etc.)

For further discussion. These two tasks are separable and maybe they are
better separated since the workload is increasing steadily (e.g. now likely
looking at more than 12 mtgs/year).

> >>- keep meetings going even if there is no topic
> >
> > I have a difference of opinion on this one.  If we don't have a topic, I
> > don't think we have a meeting.  I would want to put my energy into
>having
> > content in the meeting.  If there is no content, then cancel the meeting
>is
> > my feeling.

Let me make some observations I have seen from the survey results (96 so far
and counting).
- Some people value the social/networking content of a meeting equally or
more highly than a particular talk, and are happy to just chat, network,
discuss their issues and meet people.
- Some people (esp. who have 3/4-hr roundtrip commutes) need to be assured
the event they are promised will actually happen as advertised. We can
accomodate both by being well-organized.
This is one of Rick Moen's laws:
http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Linux_PR/newlug.html
"6. You need to make sure that meetings happen as advertised, without fail."
Rich Morin posted that excellent article and it is well worth a read from
top to bottom.
(It is possible some members could also propose social events, meetups, cafe
chats.)

>[Marilyn] I am intrigued by Paul Gavin's generous [webhosting] offer:
>Do I remember that Dennis asked for the power to upload his working
>schedule to the web site?
>I think it would be cool to have an alternate web space with the name
>pybay.xxx.  Short and sweet.  Maybe Dennis could upload his document there?
>  Maybe the baypiggies site could be echoed there.

Let us please not inject "domain name change" into the mix. I suggested we
table that until June at earliest.
If Deirdre owns the baypiggies domain name, would she agree to transfer it
to someone else?
I think that is a good step to take for the time being. Without prejudice to
any possible future name change or not.
If Danny is the point of contact that may be problematic, since he's moving
to the East Coast.
So let us identify "domain name contact" and "webmaster" as unresolved
issues.

> > This has been an excellent list.  Thanks for being explicit.

If we can make decisions we can and should get the list volume back down.
(I'm thinking of a certain John Lennon song.)

Best,
Stephen


_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moving forward (was meetup ...)

Marilyn Davis
In reply to this post by Dennis Reinhardt
Good Saturday Morning,

----- On Thursday, April 27, 2006 [hidden email] wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
>>
>> What is missing from the lists of tasks is "decision-making".  How has
>> that been happening so far?
>
> Decision?  What's that?  An appropriate description would be something
> along the lines of loosely organized chaos.

Yes, so far.  And it worked most the time.  And thank you, and all the long-time volunteers for pulling so much together for so long.

>
>> I also remember that the poll and survey are considered "non-binding".
>> What is binding?
>
> Getting enough people to agree.  My bias is toward not changing things.

Gee Aahz, you didn't go to the March meeting and experience first-hand that something needs fixing/changing.  The expression is "if it works, don't fix it".  But if you drove to that meeting, and sat in the audience blinking in amazement like a deer in the headlights, you'd know that something is not working.

Also, the group of volunteers has whittled way down and there has been a call for new ones.  That's change.

>
>> I find it uncomfortable for a big volunteer group to be in a position
>> where they can't make a decision unless a specific 2 people are
>> involved, specially when both are too busy writing books and having
>> babies to participate.  Are we simply stuck?
>
> Not from my POV.  But I don't think that just because a few people are
> clamoring for change is a reason to let things move forward in a
> different direction.

It depends on the people.  If the new volunteers are clamoring for change, then it's time to change.

>
> BTW, note that Danny is the primary contact for baypiggies.net and
> Deirdre still owns the domain.

There you are.  Danny is going away.  Deirdre is into Ruby now.  The keys to our important resources are away from the control of the new volunteers.

The power of the group lies in the computer resources.  These need to belong to the group.  Strange things can happen when individuals feel they own them.

>
>> If we find a way to unstick ourselves, I hope that we make some
>> schedule where we rotate the duties, that no one holds a position of
>> power and visibility for longer than a year or two.
>
> That's an idea, but it also implies a lot more organization than I think
> is likely to ever happen.
>
>> "Benevolent dictator" makes a lot of sense for a technical design or
>> a programming language, but not for a big volunteer group.  Volunteer
>> groups thrive on democracy.
>
> Not in my experience.  My experience is that volunteer groups thrive
> on -- guess what? -- volunteers.  And unless the volunteer base is large
> enough, consensus is usually more important than democracy.

Consensus, where no one disagrees, is the purest form of democracy.  We're not likely to acheive that.

I should rephrase.  We are not a big volunteer group.  There have been five(?) volunteers over the history of the group?  5/340 (pulling up the python interprester) = 1.47%  We are a group of mostly moochers, including me until that March meeting, with almost no volunteers.  To attract and keep volunteers, the volunteers need to feel it is their club, that they have voice and power in determining direction.

So, if the new volunteers are clamoring for some organization and change, it is important to hear that and support them in their efforts.  To coordinate volunteers, the good coordinator says "yes! good idea! how can I help! thank you!" -- never anything negative.

Stephen, and everyone, I'm sorry about the thread-jacking.  I'll try to be more conscious.  In our defense I'll say that it was a easy slip since we were talking about whether or not there was any point in that meeting.  But, I'll certainly try to be more conscious about it.

And Stephen, please don't tell me what to talk about.  It will never work.

And mentioning Paul's offer to give us pybay.xxx isn't just about a different name, it is about a web site that new volunteers can contribute to.  Dennis is using his own.

Too much traffic?  I see that Aahz announces meetings to [hidden email] and [hidden email].  I can't think of another purpose for this list than to figure out face-to-faces and coordinate volunteers.  It seems that every other feasible purpose has another list.

My best wishes,

Marilyn
 

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moving forward (was meetup ...)

Marilyn Davis
In reply to this post by Dennis Reinhardt

----- On Friday, April 28, 2006 [hidden email] wrote:

> Good Saturday Morning,

Ooops. Got that wrong.  Happy Friday!

Marilyn

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moving forward (was meetup ...)

Stephen McInerney
In reply to this post by Marilyn Davis
Hi Marilyn,

>From: Marilyn Davis <[hidden email]>

>And Stephen, please don't tell me what to talk about.  It will never work.
>
>And mentioning Paul's offer to give us pybay.xxx isn't just about a
>different name, it is about a web site that new volunteers can contribute
>to.  Dennis is using his own.

It seemed like proposing domain name change is a backdoor way of proposing
name change.
Unless you meant "regaining access to the baypiggies server", in which case
that intent was not stated. Was that your intent?
Re name: Many people have stated very strongly they do not want to discuss
changing the name,
and object to the list volume, to the point of unsubscribing - here are the
fairly strong survey comments on that matter:

1. The mailing list is far too noisy with silly junk like name changing.
Really, 50 messages in a day about chaning the name is just enough to make
anyone unsubscribe and not come to meetings because the people involved are
just too petty. Having been involved in other PIGs, BayPIGgies is a little
too busy-bodied without enough to show for all the accompanying anal
retention. This is why even though the Bay Area is home to many Python
luminaries, those people have a low level of engagement with BayPIGgies. If
someone has a talk to give, have a meeting. If not, don't worry about it.

2. TOO MUCH EMAIL GOING AROUND. CAN WE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP IT!!!!!
This used to be a useful mailing list and I look forward to mails to this
list. NOT ANYMORE.

>Too much traffic?  I see that Aahz announces meetings to
>[hidden email] and [hidden email].  I can't think of
>another purpose for this list than to figure out face-to-faces and
>coordinate volunteers.  It seems that every other feasible purpose has
>another list.

You have seen the unsubscribe requests.

We only make <=3 announces a month, so a baypiggies-announce list could be a
great idea.
The group internal conversations about Python, interests and the group
itself are currently generating ~150 a mth.
I now read the list using the threaded mailman view:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/thread.html

Regards,
Stephen


_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moving forward (was meetup ...)

Danny Yoo
In reply to this post by Marilyn Davis
>> BTW, note that Danny is the primary contact for baypiggies.net and
>> Deirdre still owns the domain.
>
> There you are.  Danny is going away.  Deirdre is into Ruby now.  The
> keys to our important resources are away from the control of the new
> volunteers.

Hi Marilyn,

That brings up a point: I must reliquish control of this to allow someone
more involved to be the point of contact.  It's not fair to the active
members of the group to be beholden to anyone who doesn't attend the
meetings (like me!  *wink*)

I'm sorry that I just can't be more involved.  But I do want to make sure
I'm not encumbering the group.  If anyone wants to step up to this, please
raise your hand, and we'll do the "passing of keys" thing.  Right now, the
only other people I know who I've shared the site information to have
been:

     * Wes
     * Tony
     * Aahz

And I suspect that none of us are involved to a degree that satisfies the
group.  So if someone wants to be the point person (people?) for this,
please send your consent to the group.  This problem is very solvable!
*grin*

The same princibles should apply too with the 'baypiggies.net' domain
name.  In this case, I still have to hear back from Deirdre and
register.com about this one, and assume that register.com is just dragging
its feet on completing the transfer.  But in the case that someone can
raise their hand to shepherd the domain name, they should do that now so
we can get this quickly settled too.


Best of wishes!
_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moving forward (was meetup ...)

Dennis Reinhardt
At 03:32 PM 4/28/2006, Danny Yoo wrote:
>If anyone wants to step up to this, please
>raise your hand, and we'll do the "passing of keys" thing.

Danny,

I am interested in this key passing thing.  Others can hold up their hands
and we will work it out.  I already have content for the next several
meetings (in my sig) that the present arrangement is not moving forward on
so I have already started.

Regards, Dennis
------------------------------------
| Dennis    | [hidden email]     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
12