Playing with a new theme for the docs

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Playing with a new theme for the docs

Georg Brandl-2
Hi all,

recently I've grown a bit tired of seeing our default Sphinx theme,
especially as so many other projects use it.  I decided to play around
with something "clean" this time, and this is the result:

  http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html/

The corresponding sandbox repo is at

  http://hg.python.org/sandbox/doc-theme/#doc-theme

Let me know what you think, or play around and send some improvements.
(The collapsible sidebar is not adapted to it yet, but will definitely
be integrated before I consider applying a new theme to the real docs.)

Thanks,
Georg

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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Guido van Rossum
Nice and clean, but looks too similar to newer Google properties...
Also I see that (like Google) you're falling for the fallacy of using
less contrast. From an accessibility perspective that's questionable
-- and I don't mean the legally blind, just people like myself whose
eyes are getting a bit older. This also means I don't particularly
like adding background color (no matter how light) to text samples.

--Guido

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Georg Brandl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> recently I've grown a bit tired of seeing our default Sphinx theme,
> especially as so many other projects use it.  I decided to play around
> with something "clean" this time, and this is the result:
>
>  http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html/
>
> The corresponding sandbox repo is at
>
>  http://hg.python.org/sandbox/doc-theme/#doc-theme
>
> Let me know what you think, or play around and send some improvements.
> (The collapsible sidebar is not adapted to it yet, but will definitely
> be integrated before I consider applying a new theme to the real docs.)

--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

John O'Connor-4
In reply to this post by Georg Brandl-2
On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Georg Brandl <[hidden email]> wrote:
> recently I've grown a bit tired of seeing our default Sphinx theme,
> especially as so many other projects use it.

I think regardless of the chosen style, giving the Python 3 docs a
different look and feel also has a psychological benefit that might
further encourage users to consider moving to Python 3. It could be a
bit of a wake-up call.
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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

R. David Murray
In reply to this post by Georg Brandl-2
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:38:53 +0100, Georg Brandl <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> recently I've grown a bit tired of seeing our default Sphinx theme,
> especially as so many other projects use it.  I decided to play around
> with something "clean" this time, and this is the result:
>
>   http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html/

The font looks better in my browser, but otherwise I prefer the current
style.  The biggest thing I don't like about the new style is the fact
that the content is not set off from the chrome by shading.  Having it
shaded makes it easier for my eye to ignore it and just focus on
the content.

Hey, maybe you could make the sidebar only appear if the browser
supports javascript?  Then I'd never have to see it, and that
I would consider "clean" :)

Thanks for working on improving things.

--David
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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Tres Seaver
In reply to this post by Guido van Rossum
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Hash: SHA1

On 03/20/2012 06:45 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> Nice and clean, but looks too similar to newer Google properties...
> Also I see that (like Google) you're falling for the fallacy of using
> less contrast. From an accessibility perspective that's questionable
> -- and I don't mean the legally blind, just people like myself whose
> eyes are getting a bit older. This also means I don't particularly
> like adding background color (no matter how light) to text samples.

+1.  Even make comments low-contrast defeats their purpose (italic works
fine for that).


Tres.
- --
===================================================================
Tres Seaver          +1 540-429-0999          [hidden email]
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"    http://palladion.com
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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Antoine Pitrou
In reply to this post by Georg Brandl-2

Hi Georg,

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:38:53 +0100
Georg Brandl <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> recently I've grown a bit tired of seeing our default Sphinx theme,
> especially as so many other projects use it.  I decided to play around
> with something "clean" this time, and this is the result:
>
>   http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html/

Not enough colours, and/or not enough visual cues for page structure.

cheers

Antoine.


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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Cameron Simpson
In reply to this post by Guido van Rossum
On 20Mar2012 15:45, Guido van Rossum <[hidden email]> wrote:
| Nice and clean, but looks too similar to newer Google properties...
| Also I see that (like Google) you're falling for the fallacy of using
| less contrast. From an accessibility perspective that's questionable
| -- and I don't mean the legally blind, just people like myself whose
| eyes are getting a bit older. This also means I don't particularly
| like adding background color (no matter how light) to text samples.

Conversely, I like the text samples slightly shaded; I find a bare rectangle
on the perimeter of a DIV just a tad more like noise, whereas a very slightly
shaded block makes it very clear to me.

I know it is a PITA, but how hard is it to make a tiny tiny CSS control
block somewhere so a user can tune the style in coarse ways (i.e. tweak
the properties of the class for shaded blocks)?

I think the font choice in the new style is better; cleaner, less noisy,
like a sans serif font versus a serifed font. So much so that I
thought the new style used annoyingly more whitespace, but putting them
side by side shows the new style to be more compact. Win win!

One thing that bothers me about both styles is the fixed width text
versus proportional size difference. Let me say in advance that I'm
viewing both in Firefox on a Mac. To take an example, in the argparse
module the opening sentence says "The argparse module". For me the word
"argparse" is distinctly shorter in vertical height, which is a bit
jarring. (the difference is smaller in the new style.) Is there a way
to specify fonts that keeps this height attribute the same?

Example screen shots (just those three words):
  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2607515/screenshots/argparse-new1.png
  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2607515/screenshots/argparse-old1.png

Cheers,
--
Cameron Simpson <[hidden email]> DoD#743
http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/

That's just the sort of bloody stupid name they would choose.
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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Raymond Hettinger-4
In reply to this post by Antoine Pitrou

On Mar 20, 2012, at 5:37 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

Georg Brandl <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

recently I've grown a bit tired of seeing our default Sphinx theme,
especially as so many other projects use it.  I decided to play around
with something "clean" this time, and this is the result:

 http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html/

Not enough colours, and/or not enough visual cues for page structure.

cheers

Antoine.

Like Antoine, I'm having a hard time navigating the page.
For me, the current theme is *much* better.


Raymond

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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Terry Reedy
In reply to this post by Georg Brandl-2
On 3/20/2012 6:38 PM, Georg Brandl wrote:

The current green on the front page is too heavy. Otherwise I prefer the
old. I like the color on the index chart of the builtin-functions page.
You un-bolded most (not all) of the entries and then are definitely too
thin now. You unbolded the blue elsewhere and it is definitely harder
for me to read. My eyesight does not correct to 20/20 and I have trouble
reading many things, but the current docs work pretty well for me.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Ned Batchelder
In reply to this post by Georg Brandl-2
On 3/20/2012 6:38 PM, Georg Brandl wrote:
> Let me know what you think, or play around and send some improvements.
> (The collapsible sidebar is not adapted to it yet, but will definitely
> be integrated before I consider applying a new theme to the real docs.)
Not to add to the chorus of tweakers, but if I could change just one
thing about the current theme, it would be to remove full justification
of the text.  In text like ours with frequent long expressions, URLs,
and the like, full justification is just an invitation to mangle the
spacing of a paragraph.  The paragraphs are also quite short and often
interrupted by samples, lists, headings, and so on, losing the design
advantage of a clean right edge anyway.

Books, magazines, and newspapers look good with full justification, web
pages do not.  Can we switch to left-justified instead?

--Ned.
> Thanks,
> Georg
>
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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Georg Brandl-2
In reply to this post by Guido van Rossum
On 20.03.2012 23:45, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> Nice and clean, but looks too similar to newer Google properties...
> Also I see that (like Google) you're falling for the fallacy of using
> less contrast. From an accessibility perspective that's questionable
> -- and I don't mean the legally blind, just people like myself whose
> eyes are getting a bit older. This also means I don't particularly
> like adding background color (no matter how light) to text samples.

Well, to be fair, the current theme also has a lot of shading, and the
text in the sidebar is at lower contrast too.  But I can see that the
main text should remain at as high contrast as possible.

Georg

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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Georg Brandl-2
In reply to this post by R. David Murray
On 21.03.2012 00:17, R. David Murray wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:38:53 +0100, Georg Brandl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> recently I've grown a bit tired of seeing our default Sphinx theme,
>> especially as so many other projects use it.  I decided to play around
>> with something "clean" this time, and this is the result:
>>
>>   http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html/
>
> The font looks better in my browser, but otherwise I prefer the current
> style.  The biggest thing I don't like about the new style is the fact
> that the content is not set off from the chrome by shading.  Having it
> shaded makes it easier for my eye to ignore it and just focus on
> the content.

Not sure what "the unshaded chrome" is -- only the header bar, since the
sidebar is shaded already?

Georg

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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Georg Brandl-2
In reply to this post by Raymond Hettinger-4
On 21.03.2012 01:57, Raymond Hettinger wrote:

>
> On Mar 20, 2012, at 5:37 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>
>> Georg Brandl <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> recently I've grown a bit tired of seeing our default Sphinx theme,
>>> especially as so many other projects use it.  I decided to play around
>>> with something "clean" this time, and this is the result:
>>>
>>>  http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html/
>>
>> Not enough colours, and/or not enough visual cues for page structure.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Antoine.
>
> Like Antoine, I'm having a hard time navigating the page.
> For me, the current theme is *much* better.

OK, that seems to be the main point people make... let me see if I can
come up with a better compromise.

Georg

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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Dirkjan Ochtman
On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 07:00, Georg Brandl <[hidden email]> wrote:
> OK, that seems to be the main point people make... let me see if I can
> come up with a better compromise.

Would it be possible to limit the width of the page? On my 1920px
monitor, the lines get awfully long, making them harder to read.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Matt Joiner

Turn your monitor portrait or make the window smaller :)


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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Jonathan Hartley
In reply to this post by Dirkjan Ochtman
On 21/03/2012 08:25, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 07:00, Georg Brandl<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> OK, that seems to be the main point people make... let me see if I can
>> come up with a better compromise.
> Would it be possible to limit the width of the page? On my 1920px
> monitor, the lines get awfully long, making them harder to read.
I realise this is bikeshedding by now, but FWIW, please don't. If people
want shorter lines, they can narrow their browser, without forcing that
preference on the rest of us.
> Cheers,
>
> Dirkjan
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Made of meat.       +44 7737 062 225       twitter/skype: tartley


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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Oleg Broytman
On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 09:33:13AM +0000, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
> On 21/03/2012 08:25, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> >On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 07:00, Georg Brandl<[hidden email]>  wrote:
> >>OK, that seems to be the main point people make... let me see if I can
> >>come up with a better compromise.
> >Would it be possible to limit the width of the page? On my 1920px
> >monitor, the lines get awfully long, making them harder to read.
> I realise this is bikeshedding by now, but FWIW, please don't. If
> people want shorter lines, they can narrow their browser, without
> forcing that preference on the rest of us.

   Seconded. My display is 1920x1200 but I use very large fonts and I'm
satisfied with line lengths.

Oleg.
--
     Oleg Broytman            http://phdru.name/            [hidden email]
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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Ben Finney-10
In reply to this post by Dirkjan Ochtman
Dirkjan Ochtman <[hidden email]> writes:

> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 07:00, Georg Brandl <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > OK, that seems to be the main point people make... let me see if I
> > can come up with a better compromise.
>
> Would it be possible to limit the width of the page? On my 1920px
> monitor, the lines get awfully long, making them harder to read.

−1. Please, web designers, don't presume to know what width the viewer
wants. We can change the window size if that's what we want.

--
 \      “I hope some animal never bores a hole in my head and lays its |
  `\   eggs in my brain, because later you might think you're having a |
_o__)             good idea but it's just eggs hatching.” —Jack Handey |
Ben Finney

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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Chris Withers
In reply to this post by Jonathan Hartley


On 21/03/2012 09:33, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
> On 21/03/2012 08:25, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 07:00, Georg Brandl<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> OK, that seems to be the main point people make... let me see if I can
>>> come up with a better compromise.
>> Would it be possible to limit the width of the page? On my 1920px
>> monitor, the lines get awfully long, making them harder to read.
> I realise this is bikeshedding by now, but FWIW, please don't. If people
> want shorter lines, they can narrow their browser, without forcing that
> preference on the rest of us.

+ sys.maxint

Chris
--
Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting
             - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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Re: Playing with a new theme for the docs

Antoine Pitrou
In reply to this post by Terry Reedy
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:39:41 -0400
Terry Reedy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 3/20/2012 6:38 PM, Georg Brandl wrote:
>
> The current green on the front page is too heavy.

Green?
hmm... you mean blue, right?
:)

Antoine.


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