Pre-announcement announcement

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
13 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Pre-announcement announcement

Arthur-27

I will going out with the PyGeo1.0 alpha release within the next few days.

There has been about as much attention to detail connecting to this
release as I am capable.

Tested on WindowsXP with Python2.4 and ubuntu Linux and Python2.3.

Nonetheless, there is the having left home and forgotten something
important, I'm not sure what, kind of feeling..

My intention is to promote PyGeo mostly outside the Python community.  
And if I have any success it will be the first exposure by some folks to
Python.

So it would nice if I got it nice.

The site is

http://pygeo.sourceforge.net

with downloads available on sourceforge.

My impression of how impressions are formed on projects such as this is
on the weakest link in the chain

So frank feedback from anyone willing to take some time and have a look
is appreciated.

Art

_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pre-announcement announcement

kirby urner-4
Thanks Arthur.  I'll be taking a test drive soon and will provide some feedback, probably on edu-sig.  More engaging feedback will likely come from people who know projective geometry, its principal theorems, a lot better than I do.  So don't hold your breath for my remarks to be breathtaking in their insightfulness.  I doubt they will be.

Kirby


On 1/22/06, Arthur <[hidden email]> wrote:

I will going out with the PyGeo1.0 alpha release within the next few days.

There has been about as much attention to detail connecting to this
release as I am capable.

Tested on WindowsXP with Python2.4 and ubuntu Linux and Python2.3.

Nonetheless, there is the having left home and forgotten something
important, I'm not sure what, kind of feeling..

My intention is to promote PyGeo mostly outside the Python community.
And if I have any success it will be the first exposure by some folks to
Python.

So it would nice if I got it nice.

The site is

http://pygeo.sourceforge.net

with downloads available on sourceforge.

My impression of how impressions are formed on projects such as this is
on the weakest link in the chain

So frank feedback from anyone willing to take some time and have a look
is appreciated.

Art

_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig


_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pre-announcement announcement

Arthur-27
kirby urner wrote:

> Thanks Arthur.  I'll be taking a test drive soon and will provide some
> feedback, probably on edu-sig.  More engaging feedback will likely
> come from people who know projective geometry, its principal theorems,
> a lot better than I do.  So don't hold your breath for my remarks to
> be breathtaking in their insightfulness.  I doubt they will be.
>
> Kirby

Thanks for any effort you undertake.

And its not so much the substantive side of things I am asking about.  
PyGeo either will or will not hold its own on that score.

More concerned about the overall impression being made.

Is the web-site strong enough / appropriate to generate interest from
folks (e.g. math educators) who have some focus on the subject matter
related to PyGeo.

Is the install easy enough for someone not Python literate?

Are the examples illustrative of the functionality, enticing.

I guess all those questions are matters of degree.

And at this point I am mostly interested in any show stoppers you
stumble on.

Art

p.s.

Amazing how much goes into the release of something like this.  To me,
just getting a little sourceforge literate was a chore - SSH keys and such.

Kind of humbling, in that there is so much of this going on - who are
these people that knock this stuff out?

OTOH, I would say that 98% of the potential audience for something like
PyGeo is knocked out just by the fact it requires one to operate in an
environment that is not primarily GUI based.  And for most people
computing, and interacting with a GUI are synonymous - and as far as
they think they should need to go.

Quite a divide.

Art

> On 1/22/06, *Arthur* <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>     I will going out with the PyGeo1.0 alpha release within the next
>     few days.
>
>     There has been about as much attention to detail connecting to this
>     release as I am capable.
>
>     Tested on WindowsXP with Python2.4 and ubuntu Linux and Python2.3.
>
>     Nonetheless, there is the having left home and forgotten something
>     important, I'm not sure what, kind of feeling..
>
>     My intention is to promote PyGeo mostly outside the Python community.
>     And if I have any success it will be the first exposure by some
>     folks to
>     Python.
>
>     So it would nice if I got it nice.
>
>     The site is
>
>     http://pygeo.sourceforge.net <http://pygeo.sourceforge.net>
>
>     with downloads available on sourceforge.
>
>     My impression of how impressions are formed on projects such as
>     this is
>     on the weakest link in the chain
>
>     So frank feedback from anyone willing to take some time and have a
>     look
>     is appreciated.
>
>     Art
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Edu-sig mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
>


_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pre-announcement announcement

kirby urner-4


Quite a divide.

Art

 Yes.  I've overheard supposedly well-educated lawyers expressing some amazement at the thought that Microsoft Word actually had to be "written" in some sense.  What could that mean?  Their imaginations boggle.

Kirby



_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pre-announcement announcement

Arthur-27
kirby urner wrote:

>
>     Quite a divide.
>
>     Art
>
>
>  Yes.  I've overheard supposedly well-educated lawyers expressing some
> amazement at the thought that Microsoft Word actually had to be
> "written" in some sense.  What could that mean?  Their imaginations
> boggle.
>
> Kirby

I think we agree that the term "well-educated" needs some redefinition.

but not sure we agree too much about how, and redefined to what.

Art

_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pre-announcement announcement

André Roberge
In reply to this post by Arthur-27
On 1/22/06, Arthur <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
[Snip]

Hi Arthur,

I'm documenting the process as I go along, in a nitpicking fashion.
Also, I'm doing it as someone who is just interested in getting a
quick look at the program, more out of curiosity.  My experience will
*not* mirror that of someone interested in teaching or doing research
in geometry.

*** Apologies to all for the rambling style of this post; I just want
to give a glimpse at a real-life experience of a first time user. ****
-------------------

Going to vpython website; the link brings me to the vpython version
for Python 2.3 (I have 2.4 on my machine).  I don't want to install an
older version.  I decide to look around and find the version for
Python 2.4

Your website mentions prominently that NumPy is required as well as
VPython, but I miss the comment that NumPy is included with VPython
later on.

Downloaded and installed PyGeo  without a hitch.  Look for it in the
startup menu or the desktop (it never gave any indication it was
creating a shortcut): no shortcut present.  This is ok, but an option
to create a shortcut on windows might be nice for the casual windows
user.  (I've never done it myself, but still!)

Hunt for PyGeo... found a help file (txt) in the pygeo folder, but no
readme.  A readme.txt file would be nice.  Guessing that I have to
call it using vpyframe.py...  Wrong guess...

Look around (I should have read more carefully your website perhaps),
and find the documentation, including the quickstart.html  Try the
Hello Point example using PythonWin... crash PythonWin  (on the fourth
line) :-(
Try with the interactive python shell.... crash it on the second line.
 This is not going well for me.

Try it with the shell included with rur-ple ;-)   Similar as PythonWin
IDE.  rur-ple seems to hang when the display.pickloop() is called.
However, I can move around the point, with the mouse (it changes color
as I move it around).

[The "hanging behavior" should not surprise me; it's most likely a
conflict between the wxpython mainloop and tkinter.]

Ok, playing with it.  Call help; I can enlarge the help window, but no
additional text it shown.  However, I can scroll down and see the rest
of the text.

Back to reading the documentation... ok, there's a lot more there that
I should have looked at first.

Reading some more, I found out why rur-ple became irresponsive once I
activated the pickloop()   (My own fault for not reading).   Ok, now
I'm puzzling how I'd get out of the loop to continue experimenting and
try the line example.  Can't find out how; kill rur-ple to get out.

Try the second example with Idle.  The "output" in the terminal window
is different than before and different also from the documentation;
the lines with "vector" are not displayed as a response  (they were
when using PythonWin or rur-ple), but LineFromPoints is (which is
different from the documentation)

>>> from pygeo import *
>>> display=display()
>>> p1=FreePoint(1,4,5)
>>> p2=FreePoint(5,11,9)
>>> Line(p1,p2)
LineFromPoints(<1, 4, 5>,<5, 11, 9>)

I try to play with it without "starting" the loop and I find out that
the right mouse button allows me to move things around.  It is fairly
reponsive.  I find that, after I call the pickloop() method, I can
kill pygeo (without killing idle).  I try again with rur-ple - killing
the pygeo window kills rur-ple altogether.

Browsing the documentation gives a good feeling.  One "surprising"
observation:  on the complex/index.html page, on the left hand side
(navigation sidebar?) there are links to Complex Numbers,  Complex
Plane and the Riemann sphere elsewhere on the documentation; on the
right-hand, the same three terms have external links, one to wolfram
stuff, the other two to wikipedia entries.  (find out it is the same
elsewhere).  I have a problem with links to exactly the same phrases
on the same page pointing in different places.
============================
Time for some "concluding" observations.

It looks like a powerful package, with a lot of thought having gone
into it.  (I don't say that to be nice!).
The pictures on the website are tentalizing ... but how do I get to
draw them. To parody an old ad: "where's the code?".

I crave for a "tutorial" showing, step by step, what it is good for.
If part of the stated goal is to have "elementary schools students and
their teachers"... I say that there are many things missing.  I can't
imagine an average elementary school teacher even beginning to grasp
how to potentially use it in the classroom.  (Of course, kids are a
different matter ;-)

As a fellow developper, I am *very impressed* by the quality of what I see.

All in all, it looks like it is ready for a 1.0 release to a
specialized audience.  It does need more work (in my opinion) on the
accompanying writeup.  Then again, perhaps it is there and I have
simply missed it in my hasty way to look at it.
====
Back to working on my own stuff.  I hope that, one day (next release
perhaps ;-) Arthur will have the time to document in the same cavalier
fashion his attempt at playing with rur-ple !!

André
_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pre-announcement announcement

André Roberge
In reply to this post by Arthur-27
On 1/22/06, Arthur <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I will going out with the PyGeo1.0 alpha release within the next few days.
>

2nd look...  (I'm watching the Canadian election results instead of
programming.... boring right now, so I went back to PyGeo's site).
====
The documentation looks very complete; good from a programmer's point
of view.  Again, I'm looking at things quickly, but there's very
little to be disappointed from, at first view.

One minor nitpick: the links to the wolfram site contain, to my mind,
very little material.  Compared to the amount of work PyGeo must have
required, I'd suggest a tiny bit more and do your own write up (with
PyGeo generated pictures!) of the information that can be currently
obtained from the wolfram site.

Ok, enough from me for tonight!  I'd encourage other people on the
list to have a look at PyGeo!

André
_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pre-announcement announcement

kirby urner-4
In reply to this post by Arthur-27

Need to try lots of stuff.  Obviously not everybody wants to try my stunts.  I don't jump in for others at the drop of a hat either -- like in a circus, the lion tamer isn't necessarily a clown or vice versa (but if you can do 'em both, fine).

For example, I'm clearly mixed up in some rag tag army of Tetrahedronistas, waging rebel action against the Giant Cube (aka Borg).  Romantic?  Sure.  But fraught with risks.  I'm proud to have a Python logo emblazoned on my armour, but I'm not suggesting everyone who enjoys Python needs to enlist in my crew. 

So *many* user groups partially overlap in Python.  Your group and mine, for example, whatever that means. I haven't read much Klein yet (nor met Calvin).  Love his bottle.

Kirby

On 1/23/06, Arthur <[hidden email]> wrote:
kirby urner wrote:

>
>     Quite a divide.
>
>     Art
>
>
>  Yes.  I've overheard supposedly well-educated lawyers expressing some
> amazement at the thought that Microsoft Word actually had to be
> "written" in some sense.  What could that mean?  Their imaginations
> boggle.
>
> Kirby

I think we agree that the term "well-educated" needs some redefinition.

but not sure we agree too much about how, and redefined to what.

Art



_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pre-announcement announcement

Arthur-27
In reply to this post by André Roberge

Andre -

I am on a short business trip so it is difficult to reply properly.

Just wanted to thank you for your work, and let you know that I find the comments
quite helpful.

Bottom line, I conclude that is unwise to attempt to reach out beyond the Python literate
community before I can offer a more complete environment for PyGeo as part of the
distribution.

I think the solution will be a customized sCIte editor.

I have looked at this before and it doesn't seem overly difficult to do, and a distribution
of this kind seems to be within the license terms and intent of the sCIte author.

And yes, I will recipricate re: rur-ple

(Caught your "rant" on planetpython, btw)

Art


----- Original Message -----
From: Andre Roberge <[hidden email]>
Date: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Pre-announcement announcement

> On 1/22/06, Arthur <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I will going out with the PyGeo1.0 alpha release within the next
> few days.
> >
>
> 2nd look...  (I'm watching the Canadian election results instead of
> programming.... boring right now, so I went back to PyGeo's site).
> ====
> The documentation looks very complete; good from a programmer's point
> of view.  Again, I'm looking at things quickly, but there's very
> little to be disappointed from, at first view.
>
> One minor nitpick: the links to the wolfram site contain, to my mind,
> very little material.  Compared to the amount of work PyGeo must have
> required, I'd suggest a tiny bit more and do your own write up (with
> PyGeo generated pictures!) of the information that can be currently
> obtained from the wolfram site.
>
> Ok, enough from me for tonight!  I'd encourage other people on the
> list to have a look at PyGeo!
>
> André
>
_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pre-announcement announcement

Arthur-27
In reply to this post by kirby urner-4


----- Original Message -----
From: kirby urner <[hidden email]>
Date: Monday, January 23, 2006 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Pre-announcement announcement
>
> So *many* user groups partially overlap in Python.  Your group and
> mine, for
> example, whatever that means. I haven't read much Klein yet (nor met
> Calvin).  Love his bottle.

Calvin's a swell fellow. Love's horses.  Gotta love a guy who loves horses.

I forget why.

>From my perspective you are more mainstream when it comes to your view of the role
of technology, and I am more mainstream when it comes to my view of mathematics.

Together we could rule the mainstream world.

boring.

Art  



>
> Kirby
>
> On 1/23/06, Arthur <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > kirby urner wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >     Quite a divide.
> > >
> > >     Art
> > >
> > >
> > >  Yes.  I've overheard supposedly well-educated lawyers
> expressing some
> > > amazement at the thought that Microsoft Word actually had to be
> > > "written" in some sense.  What could that mean?  Their
> imaginations> > boggle.
> > >
> > > Kirby
> >
> > I think we agree that the term "well-educated" needs some
> redefinition.>
> > but not sure we agree too much about how, and redefined to what.
> >
> > Art
> >
> >
>
_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pre-announcement announcement

kirby urner-4

I thought Calvin loved Hobbes.

You're probably right about your being more mainstream in mathematics.  As I make clear in my blog, I'm not even a math PhD wannabee, whereas I *am* actively seeking to credential in American literature, as one of the chief architects of the emerging Slayer mythology (Buffy, Serenity,... Ultimate Collection).

In other words, Fuller School business is leading me more in the direction of science fiction, with mathematics a layer over that (they teach Synergetics in Narnia, didn't ya know).  Python, both the logo and the language, becomes a part of the armour plating (IronPython -- even better).  The Evil Empire is a thralldom of cube and server farms.  We want to help free the drones to experience more tourism and nonviolent adventure.

Kirby


On 1/24/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:


----- Original Message -----
From: kirby urner <[hidden email]>
Date: Monday, January 23, 2006 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Pre-announcement announcement
>
> So *many* user groups partially overlap in Python.  Your group and
> mine, for
> example, whatever that means. I haven't read much Klein yet (nor met
> Calvin).  Love his bottle.

Calvin's a swell fellow. Love's horses.  Gotta love a guy who loves horses.

I forget why.

>From my perspective you are more mainstream when it comes to your view of the role
of technology, and I am more mainstream when it comes to my view of mathematics.

Together we could rule the mainstream world.

boring.

Art



_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pre-announcement announcement

Arthur-27

----- Original Message -----

From: kirby urner <[hidden email]>

Date: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 1:32 pm

Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Pre-announcement announcement

> I thought Calvin loved Hobbes. 

Both materialists.

Calvin's material being denim, primarily.

Different Hobbes?

Art 


_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pre-announcement announcement

kirby urner-4
Enter

Calvin Hobbes

in Google images.  That's who I mean now, though yes, jeans were a theme too.

Kirby


On 1/24/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

----- Original Message -----

From: kirby urner <[hidden email]>

Date: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 1:32 pm

Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Pre-announcement announcement

> I thought Calvin loved Hobbes. 

Both materialists.

Calvin's material being denim, primarily.

Different Hobbes?

Art 



_______________________________________________
Edu-sig mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig