Python 3000?

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Python 3000?

Keith Dart-2
The thought of "Python 3000" fills me more with a feeling of trepidation
rather than excitement. Is it just me, or do others feel that way?


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Re: Python 3000?

Aahz
On Fri, Aug 11, 2006, Keith Dart wrote:
>
> The thought of "Python 3000" fills me more with a feeling of trepidation
> rather than excitement. Is it just me, or do others feel that way?

Why do you feel trepidation?
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Aahz ([hidden email])           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
definition, not smart enough to debug it."  --Brian W. Kernighan
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Re: Python 3000?

Asheesh Laroia
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, Aahz wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 11, 2006, Keith Dart wrote:
>>
>> The thought of "Python 3000" fills me more with a feeling of trepidation
>> rather than excitement. Is it just me, or do others feel that way?
>
> Why do you feel trepidation?

He probably remembers the disappointment most of us felt about SimCity
3000.

-- Asheesh.

P.S. In all seriousness, if you watch the Google Video clip of Guido's
preview of the OSCON presentation, you see that Python 3000 is just a
slightly cleaner version of current Python.  I felt the same trepidation,
but now I feel excitement after having seen that.

--
Don't tell any big lies today.  Small ones can be just as effective.
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Re: Python 3000?

wesley chun
In reply to this post by Aahz
On 8/11/06, Aahz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 11, 2006, Keith Dart wrote:
> >
> > The thought of "Python 3000" fills me more with a feeling of trepidation
> > rather than excitement. Is it just me, or do others feel that way?
>
> Why do you feel trepidation?


ii don't think it should be something to be overly-concerned about...
it's supposed to have the *opposite* impact as Perl 6. ;-)

along with the video, here are Guido's earlier (PPT) slides on the subject:

http://www.python.org/doc/essays/ppt/accu2006/Py3kACCU.ppt

-wesley
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Re: Python 3000?

Keith Dart-2
In reply to this post by Aahz
Aahz wrote the following on 2006-08-11 at 12:13 PDT:
===
> Why do you feel trepidation?
===

1. Incompatible changes leading to code maintenance issues.
2. Less functionality for the "real world" (e.g. signals on posix
systems).
3. More things like the long/int unification which just cause more work
for me and provided no benefit.

Is that baseless?

BTW, I apologize for the late response. Between the time I first posted
this and now I got a new baby girl. ;-)



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Re: Python 3000?

KenSeehart
Keith Dart wrote:
Aahz wrote the following on 2006-08-11 at 12:13 PDT:
===
  
Why do you feel trepidation?
    
===

1. Incompatible changes leading to code maintenance issues. 
  
All other things being equal, it is better not to introduce incompatible changes.

One needs to weigh the relative value of improving the language against the
inconvenience of introducing incompatibilities.  IMHO the changes Guido intends
for 3000 are significant improvements.  These improvements are free for people
writing new applications.  I expect python to continue to grow in popularity, so
(as Guido has pointed out in the past) the number of programmers writing new
applications will probably eventually exceed those working with legacy 2.x code.

Because of the clear delineation between 2.x and 3.x, and the continued support
of 2.x, people with legacy code will certainly have the option of simply staying in 2.x.

So far I've been very pleased with python's progress.  I really do think python
2.5 is better than 1.52, and there are things that I do now that would have been
impossible (except perhaps in Turing equivalent sense) in the early days.  Getting
from 1.52 to 2.5 involved incompatible changes on occasion, but I don't recall
ever losing significant time during an upgrade.
2. Less functionality for the "real world" (e.g. signals on posix
systems). 
  
Huh?  What is going to happen to posix signals?
3. More things like the long/int unification which just cause more work
for me and provided no benefit.
  
"If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck".  Cleaning up numbers
will make python squeaky clean!  I think it's worth doing, but I also like that it is
being saved for 3.0 to appease those of us who don't like incompatible changes.
Is that baseless? 
  
Not at all.  But you do have a choice of staying in 2.x for as long as you like.  I have
a feeling that the amount of continuing support for 2.x will be directly proportional to
the degree of incompatibility introduced in 3000.  I probably will only use 3000 for
new projects for the first year or so.
BTW, I apologize for the late response. Between the time I first posted
this and now I got a new baby girl. ;-)
  
I imagine that you might find your life with a new baby girl incompatible with your life
prior to having a new baby girl.  Certainly you will have to deal with extra maintenance
issues.  However, I hope and believe that your life will nevertheless be greatly enriched
by the experience.

Congratulations and best wishes!

- Ken Seehart



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Re: Python 3000?

Tung Wai Yip
> Keith Dart wrote:
>> Aahz wrote the following on 2006-08-11 at 12:13 PDT:
>> ===
>>
>>> Why do you feel trepidation?
>>>
>> ===
>>
>> 1. Incompatible changes leading to code maintenance issues.
>>
> All other things being equal, it is better not to introduce incompatible
> changes.


At least one incompatible change I'm dying to see - use unicode string by  
default. It is better to do it right once than muddling with whether  
something is byte string or if it is unicode string every step on the way.

Wai Yip
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