Python Job posting- still allowed ?

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Python Job posting- still allowed ?

Tony Cappellini-2

I know there were  some complaints about posting Python job listins.
I don't remember the outcome- but is it still ok to submit a posting for Bay Area Python jobs?

If not, anyone who is looking ,email me privately.


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Re: Python Job posting- still allowed ?

Paul McNett ∅
Tony C wrote:
> I know there were  some complaints about posting Python job listins.
> I don't remember the outcome- but is it still ok to submit a posting for
> Bay Area Python jobs?

I believe the complaints had more to do with posting non-Python or
non-local jobs on baypiggies (such as the Pixar ones which seem to be
C++ jobs and not Python jobs). If it is in the Bay Area and Python, it
is on-topic and allowed. Just my 2 cents.

--
Paul McNett
http://paulmcnett.com
http://dabodev.com

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Re: Python Job posting- still allowed ?

Aahz
In reply to this post by Tony Cappellini-2
On Wed, May 10, 2006, Tony C wrote:
>
> I know there were some complaints about posting Python job listins.  I
> don't remember the outcome- but is it still ok to submit a posting for
> Bay Area Python jobs?

The policy on baypiggies.net is still in force.
--
Aahz ([hidden email])           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
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Re: Python Job posting- still allowed ?

Mike Cheponis
What is the policy on baypiggies.net ?

On Wed, 10 May 2006, Aahz wrote:

> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:38:40 -0700
> From: Aahz <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Python Job posting- still allowed ?
>
> On Wed, May 10, 2006, Tony C wrote:
>>
>> I know there were some complaints about posting Python job listins.  I
>> don't remember the outcome- but is it still ok to submit a posting for
>> Bay Area Python jobs?
>
> The policy on baypiggies.net is still in force.
> --
> Aahz ([hidden email])           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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Re: Python Job posting- still allowed ?

Paul McNett ∅
Mike Cheponis wrote:
> What is the policy on baypiggies.net ?

http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html


--
Paul McNett
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http://dabodev.com

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Re: Python Job posting- still allowed ?

Mike Cheponis
Thanks all.


Think about how much easier it would have been to post this initially, rather than begging the question:

     * You must subscribe to the BayPIGgies mailing list so that you can read discussion of your ad
     * Principals only, no recruiters. We prefer ads to come from technical people to make it easier to get questions answered
     * Each company may post one ad per month
     * Please make clear how Python will be used on the job
     * Please restrict the geographic region to the greater SF Bay Area, roughly south to Monterey, north to Santa Rosa, and east to Sacramento

I think this policy is short-sighted.

There is enough noise on this list so that, for example, a company posting TWO per month (or, gosh, even THREE) would not make a detectable difference traffic.

But it's the meta-effect that I worry about: By getting a flow of offered jobs, we can all see what is in demand, what is considered essential by the market, what we might want to concentrate on to remain relevant.


Bottom line: I'd like to see MANY more job ads on this list, interspersed with the general list chatter (by people who almost never come to the meetings, I might add... Maybe we should make a policy that you can't post to the list unless you attend at least half the meetings in a given 12-month period?  Just a thought...).


I hope the Survey that is being talked about at Thursday's meeting has addressed this issue about job postings.



On Wed, 10 May 2006, Paul McNett wrote:

>> What is the policy on baypiggies.net ?
>
> http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html
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Re: Python Job posting- still allowed ?

Aahz
On Wed, May 10, 2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:
>
> I think this policy is short-sighted.

This policy is not up for discussion.  Long experience indicates that
allowing more job ads quickly changes the character of a discussion list.
I carefully designed the policy to permit job ads without forcing the
creation of a separate BayPIGgies job list.
--
Aahz ([hidden email])           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
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Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job posting- still allowed ?]

Danny Yoo
In reply to this post by Mike Cheponis
> Think about how much easier it would have been to post this initially,
> rather than begging the question:

[job posting policy content cut]

Hi Mike,

True; that probably would have been the better approach.  It's sometimes
difficult to know if a response to a question is insufficiently
informative;  we don't know enough about the questioner to realize that
"look at the web site" might be too abrupt.


> Bottom line: I'd like to see MANY more job ads on this list,
> interspersed with the general list chatter (by people who almost never
> come to the meetings, I might add... Maybe we should make a policy that
> you can't post to the list unless you attend at least half the meetings
> in a given 12-month period?  Just a thought...).

I just wanted to comment on the last parenthetical comment.  Rather than
encourage a policy of exclusion, I'd rather see a policy of participation.

(Of course, I'm one of those people who haven't come to a Baypiggies
meeting in a while, so of course I'm obligated to object to being
silenced.  *grin*)

That is, I think one could spend energy to discourage a group of people
from dominating discussion.  But that energy could be also directed to
start a new thread of conversation that allows others to participate
freely.


Let's go meta on this.  Here's a question for folks here: as a
professional programmer, what other community resources do you use to
become better at what you do?  Are there local workshops or classes in the
area that have been particularly effective and successful?

Do subscriptions to organizations like the ACM or IEEE (or BayPIGgies)
help at all?  If not, what can such organizations do to help improve its
participants?


Best of wishes!
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Re: Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job posting- sti

Stephen McInerney
Danny & Mike,

Re list use and volume: there are widely differing opinions. Some people
susbscribe
to many lists and do not want to miss crucial announcements. We may want to
fork off baypiggies-announce and baypiggies-discussion (and maybe even
baypiggies-jobs).

Re resources/organizations people use: This was one of the survey questions
and I will have the results tomorrow night (and on the list a couple of days
after).

Regards,
Stephen


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Re: Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job posting- sti

Shannon -jj Behrens
On 5/10/06, Stephen McInerney <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Danny & Mike,
>
> Re list use and volume: there are widely differing opinions. Some people
> susbscribe
> to many lists and do not want to miss crucial announcements. We may want to
> fork off baypiggies-announce and baypiggies-discussion (and maybe even
> baypiggies-jobs).
>
> Re resources/organizations people use: This was one of the survey questions
> and I will have the results tomorrow night (and on the list a couple of days
> after).

+1 to the idea of baypiggies-announce, baypiggies-discussion, and
baypiggies-jobs.

-jj
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Re: Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job posting- still allowed ?]

Shannon -jj Behrens
In reply to this post by Danny Yoo
On 5/10/06, Danny Yoo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > Think about how much easier it would have been to post this initially,
> > rather than begging the question:
>
> [job posting policy content cut]
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> True; that probably would have been the better approach.  It's sometimes
> difficult to know if a response to a question is insufficiently
> informative;  we don't know enough about the questioner to realize that
> "look at the web site" might be too abrupt.
>
>
> > Bottom line: I'd like to see MANY more job ads on this list,
> > interspersed with the general list chatter (by people who almost never
> > come to the meetings, I might add... Maybe we should make a policy that
> > you can't post to the list unless you attend at least half the meetings
> > in a given 12-month period?  Just a thought...).
>
> I just wanted to comment on the last parenthetical comment.  Rather than
> encourage a policy of exclusion, I'd rather see a policy of participation.
>
> (Of course, I'm one of those people who haven't come to a Baypiggies
> meeting in a while, so of course I'm obligated to object to being
> silenced.  *grin*)
>
> That is, I think one could spend energy to discourage a group of people
> from dominating discussion.  But that energy could be also directed to
> start a new thread of conversation that allows others to participate
> freely.
>
>
> Let's go meta on this.  Here's a question for folks here: as a
> professional programmer, what other community resources do you use to
> become better at what you do?  Are there local workshops or classes in the
> area that have been particularly effective and successful?
>
> Do subscriptions to organizations like the ACM or IEEE (or BayPIGgies)
> help at all?  If not, what can such organizations do to help improve its
> participants?

I pay attention to the SDForum and the ACCU.

BayPiggies has value as a mailing list even if you can't make it to a
meeting.  This is about the only Python mailing list that I'm on, and
I find it valuable.
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Re: Python Job posting- still allowed ?

Doug Landauer-2
In reply to this post by Mike Cheponis
On May 10, 2006, at 2:12 PM, Mike Cheponis wrote:
> Think about how much easier it would have been to post this initially
> ...

Think about how much less of a bother to the rest of us it would have
been for you to try exactly that question ("What is the policy on
baypiggies.net?") on Google first.  Or after Aahz hinted towards its
location.

> There is enough noise on this list so that, for example, a company
> posting TWO per month (or, gosh, even THREE) would not make a
> detectable difference traffic.

That might have been true for April 2006.  I recall no other month with
even one third as much traffic:  The archives since 11/2005 show 30kb,
112k, 109, 67, 179, and then 664k for April.)

> ... Maybe we should make a policy that you can't post to the list
> unless you attend at least half the meetings in a given 12-month
> period?  Just a thought...).

-9

  -- Doug L.

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Re: Python Job posting- still allowed ?

Mike Cheponis
On Wed, 10 May 2006, Doug Landauer wrote:

>> Think about how much easier it would have been to post this initially


> Think about how much less of a bother to the rest of us

You speak for "the rest of us"? (Sounds like an Apple marketing promo...)


> it would have been for you to try exactly that question ("What is the policy on
> baypiggies.net?") on Google first.  Or after Aahz hinted towards its
> location.

But, but, but....

it was asked on an email list!  The _point_ of an email list is, I think, to exchange information via (gulp!) email!

It's a simple courtesy, especially for those of us who read this group on our mobile phones.

I am thankful that Aahz posted _something_, tho.  Much better than nothing.

And URLs are transitory; 404s and whatnot happen all the time.  Email is better for this sort of thing.


You might not agree with me, but look at it this way:  If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong.


>> There is enough noise on this list so that, for example, a company
>>,,,
> That might have been true for April 2006.  I recall no other month with
>...

I don't think you understood my meta-point.  Please email privately if you're still interested.


>> ... Maybe we should make a policy that you can't post to the list
>> unless you attend at least half the meetings in a given 12-month
>> period?  Just a thought...).

> -9

Yes, I should have put in the ;-)  but I hoped it was obvious.

http://tinyurl.com/pu9rv


I assume, Doug, that you won't be coming to the Thursday meeting?  ;-)  (But you still want to be able to post to the list? ...)

>  -- Doug L.

Mike
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Re: Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job posting- sti

Mike Cheponis
In reply to this post by Shannon -jj Behrens
I like it!

-Mike


On Wed, 10 May 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> +1 to the idea of baypiggies-announce, baypiggies-discussion, and baypiggies-jobs.

> -jj
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Re: Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job posting- still allowed ?]

tpc247
In reply to this post by Danny Yoo


On 5/10/06, Danny Yoo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Let's go meta on this.  Here's a question for folks here: as a
professional programmer, what other community resources do you use to
become better at what you do?  Are there local workshops or classes in the
area that have been particularly effective and successful?


hi Danny, haven't seen or heard from you in a while, hope everything is well with you.  To answer your question, I really enjoyed the Object Oriented Design class from Allen Holub offered in his house in Berkeley.  After I came out of that class, I realized I needed to read more on design patterns and test driven development.  The class taught me that 75% of software projects fail, not because the software doesn't work, but because it doesn't do anything useful. What was emphasized in the five day class was the primacy of object oriented design and design patterns in creating software that is easy to maintain and to upgrade.

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Re: Python Job posting- still allowed ?

Aahz
In reply to this post by Mike Cheponis
On Thu, May 11, 2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:

>
> But, but, but....
>
> it was asked on an email list!  The _point_ of an email list is, I
> think, to exchange information via (gulp!) email!
>
> It's a simple courtesy, especially for those of us who read this group
> on our mobile phones.
>
> I am thankful that Aahz posted _something_, tho.  Much better than
> nothing.
>
> And URLs are transitory; 404s and whatnot happen all the time.  Email
> is better for this sort of thing.

You'll note that I did not actually post an URL.  I referenced the
BayPIGgies web site, which I think can reasonably be expected to hold the
job posting policy, precisely because e-mail lists are transitory.  I
didn't even look up the URL, quite frankly.  I'm busy, and I think that
policy questions are best answered by going to the web site; I figured
that if I did that, people might remember that for the future when they
wanted to post an ad.  Obviously, we could start posting a FAQ to the
list weekly, but I think that would just add clutter: the kind of people
who won't visit the web site won't read the list FAQ, either.
--
Aahz ([hidden email])           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
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Re: Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job posting- sti

Chad Harrington-2
In reply to this post by Mike Cheponis
+1

Chad Harrington
[hidden email]



----Original Message Follows----
From: Mike Cheponis <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job
posting- sti
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 02:19:09 -0700 (PDT)

I like it!

-Mike


On Wed, 10 May 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

 > +1 to the idea of baypiggies-announce, baypiggies-discussion, and
baypiggies-jobs.

 > -jj
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Re: Python Job posting- still allowed ?

Stephen McInerney
In reply to this post by Aahz
Aahz, Mike,

How about we attach the *URL* to an FAQ at bottom of messages?
(whenever the new website organization is done)
The FAQ can answer all these sorts of policy questions.

<slightly offtopic>
As to URLs being transitory, that's not always avoidable.
http://linuxmafia.com/ is down, including the excellent article Rich Morin
linked to:
  "Recipe for a Successful Linux User Group"
  http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Linux_PR/newlug.html

Regards,
Stephen


>From: Aahz <[hidden email]>

>You'll note that I did not actually post an URL.  I referenced the
>BayPIGgies web site, which I think can reasonably be expected to hold the
>job posting policy, precisely because e-mail lists are transitory.  I
>didn't even look up the URL, quite frankly.  I'm busy, and I think that
>policy questions are best answered by going to the web site; I figured
>that if I did that, people might remember that for the future when they
>wanted to post an ad.  Obviously, we could start posting a FAQ to the
>list weekly, but I think that would just add clutter: the kind of people
>who won't visit the web site won't read the list FAQ, either.


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Re: Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Jobposting- still allowed ?]

tpc247
In reply to this post by tpc247

On 5/11/06, Stephen McInerney <[hidden email]> wrote:

Can you please publicise the details of the Allen Holub course,
on the list?
Is it geared for C++ or language-agnostic?

hi Stephen, my notes from the class have Allen Holub making some references to Java tools, e.g., J2EE, the Tapestry framework, the Provider interface and such, more because Java was my first language so it was a handy frame of reference.  The course is language agnostic, and I know Allen has made references to C++, as well as many other languages, in the class.

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Re: Splitting the list

Aahz
In reply to this post by Shannon -jj Behrens
On Wed, May 10, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> +1 to the idea of baypiggies-announce, baypiggies-discussion, and
> baypiggies-jobs.

I really don't have time for this, but since I'm getting bugged in
private e-mail, I think it is still premature to create new lists.
Historically, the baypiggies list gets a handful of posts per week, and
the overhead of managing multiple lists IMO isn't worth it (both for
individual people and for the list admins).

Side note: I find it interesting that people are more interested in
debating subjects like this than in responding to two separate
suggestions for the June meeting.
--
Aahz ([hidden email])           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
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