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Re: Python-mode Digest, Vol 91, Issue 17

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Re: Python-mode Digest, Vol 91, Issue 17

lpeng564@gmail.com


root:alpine

在 Jan 30, 2012,7:00 PM,[hidden email] 写道:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: hide-show mode ( Fran?ois Pinard)
>   2. Re: hide-show mode (Andreas R?hler)
>   3. Re: Pymacs runs from python-mode ( Fran?ois Pinard)
>   4. Re: hide-show mode ( Fran?ois Pinard)
>   5. Re: Pymacs runs from python-mode (Richard Everson)
>   6. Re: Pymacs runs from python-mode (Andreas R?hler)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:24:25 -0500
> From: [hidden email] ( Fran?ois Pinard)
> To: Andreas R?hler <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Python-mode] hide-show mode
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Andreas R?hler <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> Oh, oh, so what kind of punishment you have prepared? :)
>
> Me preparing punishment?  Not my kind :-).  My poor knowledge of English
> makes me miss the meaning of the above sentence, but as it is ended with
> a smiley, I presume it is a friendly tease!
>
>> outline and hide-show mode are common Emacs features and will work
>> with python-mode out-of-the-box.
>
> They will surely not, if users have to explicitly turn them on.  You
> probably meant: these minor modes would work, if turned on.
>
>> The question here is, if it should be switched on by default.  Read
>> "notice" here as "being activated, thus get noticed" Well, for
>> novices, if these features are on, using some key per chance without
>> knowing what happens, that may turn nasty.  Therefor it's not
>> delivered switched-on by default, that has being the reflection.
>
> OK.  If this is really the reason, it is a good reason.  As I wrote in
> some earlier message, python-mode has not only the right to, but the
> duty of an "opinion" about what is best for average Python users, and
> should deliver itself defaulted according to this opinion.
>
>>> Did you update README?  That file should speak about capabilities and
>>> elementary configuration.
>
>> Agreed. Will do what I can, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
>> Donnerstag... - the day of donar :)
>
> The importance of giving some usable documentation for python-mode
> should not be underestimated.  I see it as a top priority in the case
> here, because it is severely lagging.  And when I say "lagging", this is
> a polite euphemism, "lacking" would me a more appropriate description.
>
> That importance goes above that of all the Blueprints altogether, you
> know :-).  Oh, no doubt it is a good thing to have self-aimed internal
> documentation meant for planning, but if we take even a moderate
> distance with the python-mode project and look at its current state, the
> priority is clearly user documentation, not maintainer documentation.
>
> README and INSTALL are very sub-minimal currently.  Only once
> python-mode has a least minimal documentation, resume in parallel user
> and maintainer documentation, and try to never lose sight again of the
> users in the process.  Make it a principle: "Users first!" :-)
>
> Fran?ois
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:39:13 +0100
> From: Andreas R?hler <[hidden email]>
> To: Fran?ois Pinard <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Python-mode] hide-show mode
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>  Make it a principle: "Users first!" :-)
>>
>> Fran?ois
>>
>>
>
> just my opinion. So let's proceed.
> BTW in doc there is a commands list.
> Might it be of some use already?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andreas
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:19:36 -0500
> From: [hidden email] ( Fran?ois Pinard)
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Python-mode] Pymacs runs from python-mode
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Andreas R?hler <[hidden email]> writes:
>> Am 29.01.2012 04:24, schrieb Fran?ois Pinard:
>
>>> * README nor INSTALL should tell about PYMACS_INSTALL_DIR
>>> * The change addresses a need which Pymacs does not offer
>>> * python-mode should work with the minimum setup possible
>>> * python-mode should pay attention at keeping its copies up-to-date
>>> * Observed flaws should be duly reported upstream
>
>> think that's our understanding too. Should something in the past
>> didn't happen that way, assume rather a lack of force than a lack of
>> will.
>
> Yes, this is what I assume.  (Same for user documentation.)  Yet we have
> to speak out about such things, because laziness being what it is (I do
> know what laziness is!), those accidental misses progressively transform
> into habits, habits into rights, and rights into principles.  We have to
> stay careful all along, and discuss methodology problems early -- as
> long, of course, as discussions do not suck up the left bits of energy!
>
>> Remains the question if a README is the suitable place for storing
>> that kind of info.
>
> In the current state of affairs with python-mode, yes, clearly,
> undoubtedly.
>
>> See you did it at Pymacs and certainly thats a possibility.
>
> Pymacs documentation is not in README, it is a reStructured Text
> formatted manual (the pre-processor has its own separate manual).  But
> when Pymacs started and had nothing else, yes, it was all in README.
> README is the traditional unavoidable file in a distribution, where
> users seek for installation instructions and user documentation (or at
> least, pointers to where it sits, when not included).
>
>> Indeed we are severely behind writing the info. Sorry for that.
>> Exists a Milestone already, 6.1.1 should deliver it - maybe already
>> 6.1?
>
> Making Milestones, Blueprints, Gantt charts about it is not effective.
> Fill in the README details *right now*, when you happen to stumble on
> them.  When you see yourself thinking "Hey, I'll add this information
> later into the Great Documentation I'm planning to have", slap yourself!
> :-) Rather *immediately* dump the information, all raw, all unformatted,
> into README.  Do not even try to be proud of it, that would come later.
> For now, just pour information in it at any opportunity.
>
>> May you open your own branch forked from trunk at lp?  Could merge
>> than all Pymacs diffs easily.
>
> Hey, let's move python-mode over to GitHub instead :-) And besides, if
> people really think it is hopeless to ever get python-mode integrated
> into Emacs, is there much remaining reason left, sticking with Bazaar?
>
> Keep happy!
>
> Fran?ois
>
> P.S. Behind the above tease, I hope you see my point: maintainers should
> get away from this attitude of always attempting to pull all users (or
> other maintainers) in their own playground.  This is one of the aspects
> I hate about trackers and other maintainer toys.  While it's comfortable
> for me to get a mere "pull request" on GitHub, I'd never try to force my
> users into it, as it might not be comfortable for them.  My comfort is
> not *more worth* than theirs.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:40:47 -0500
> From: [hidden email] ( Fran?ois Pinard)
> To: Andreas R?hler <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Python-mode] hide-show mode
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Andreas R?hler <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> Make it a principle: "Users first!" :-) just my opinion. So let's
>> proceed.
>
> Of course!
>
>> BTW in doc there is a commands list.  Might it be of some use already?
>
> As doc/ stands, it is not much different from the Emacs Lisp sources
> from which we would have subtracted Emacs Lisp.  It's much better than
> not having sources at all, but it's not essentially better than the
> sources themselves, so it does not add value to the distribution.
>
> Unless I miss something, doc/ could almost go away.  I use `C-h m' or
> `C-h b' in activated Python mode to get the key bindings, you likely do
> it this way also.  So one sentence in README telling how to do `C-h m'
> or `C-h b' could likely replace the interesting part of doc/, and maybe
> more useful too.  That's not good documentation yet, but that's a start.
>
> I doubt average Python users, not already familiar with Emacs Lisp,
> could manage their way into doc/, but I may well be wrong on that!
>
> Fran?ois
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:03:09 +0000
> From: Richard Everson <[hidden email]>
> To: Andreas R?hler <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>,
>    "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Python-mode] Pymacs runs from python-mode
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>
> On 29 Jan 2012, at 08:03, Andreas R?hler wrote:
>
>> Am 29.01.2012 04:24, schrieb Fran?ois Pinard:
>>> Andreas R?hler<[hidden email]>  writes:
>>>
>>>> If we provide the next Python-mode/Pymacs release using Make as Pymacs
>>>> does, the top directory should contain only the minimal requiring,
>>>> i.e, INSTALL, README etc.
>>>
>>> Hi, Andreas, and gang.
>>>
>>> Recently, I noticed that pymacs.el within python-mode (should be
>>> Pymacs.el from now on), has a small local modification.  When Emacs
>>> launches the Python helper, it first does:
>>>
>>>   " sys.path.insert(1, os.getenv('PYMACS_INSTALL_DIR'));"
>>>
>>> Let me comment a bit about this change:
>>>
>>> * Nowhere in python-mode README nor INSTALL, this PYMACS_INSTALL_DIR
>>>  environment variable is presented nor explained, while it really
>>>  should.  Average Python mode users are unlikely to guess they have to
>>>  set this environment variable prior to calling Emacs.
>
> Hi,
>
> This was my ugly hack to enable Python to find Pymacs when Pymacs is distributed with python-mode.el and is therefore not on sys.path.  There's nothing about it in README or INSTALL because I think it's purely local to the python-mode/pymacs interaction and the general user shouldn't need to know or do anything about it: that environment variable is set by python-mode.el.   On the other hand, it would be *much* better to use the distributed, current version of Pymacs, but it's not clear to me how to achieve that if Pymacs is not installed somewhere on the standard sys.path.
>
> Best,
> Richard.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:33:59 +0100
> From: Andreas R?hler <[hidden email]>
> To: Fran?ois Pinard <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Python-mode] Pymacs runs from python-mode
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> [ ... ]
>>> May you open your own branch forked from trunk at lp?  Could merge
>>> than all Pymacs diffs easily.
>>
>> Hey, let's move python-mode over to GitHub instead :-)
>
> it's mirrored here:
>
> https://github.com/pdee/pdee/tree/master/python-modes/python-mode-el
>
> Should you make a branch, Pymacs stuff shaped as you want, I can merge
> from there.
>
>
> Andreas
>
> [ ... ]
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> End of Python-mode Digest, Vol 91, Issue 17
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