Should we change the reply-to line on the lists?

[Fernando Perez]

Hey folks,

it seems we keep on getting people confused by the need to hit
reply-all.  There's endless debates on the merits of either approach
online and I'm not super-interested in a deep, philosophical
discussion about the well-being of the internet, just on making a
simple and pragmatic decision that works *for us*.

I'm so used to typing 'a' (the gmail shortcut for reply-all) that this
has never bothered me, but I'm ok changing.  I can always manually
change it to reply to the poster only if I want...

Note that the setting we're using is listed as "*strongly
recommended*" (emphasis theirs) in the mailman interface and is the
default.  I've just followed their advice for a long time, but I see
problems cropping up again and again, thus I'm willing to revisit the
question.

The change takes me two seconds to make, so I just want to hear if
people really would be happier with it being made.

Cheers,

f
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[Min RK]

I've always preferred lists that set reply-to as the list address.  Does the 'strong recommendation' have a reason behind it?

-MinRK

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 16:41, Fernando Perez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hey folks,

it seems we keep on getting people confused by the need to hit
reply-all.  There's endless debates on the merits of either approach
online and I'm not super-interested in a deep, philosophical
discussion about the well-being of the internet, just on making a
simple and pragmatic decision that works *for us*.

I'm so used to typing 'a' (the gmail shortcut for reply-all) that this
has never bothered me, but I'm ok changing.  I can always manually
change it to reply to the poster only if I want...

Note that the setting we're using is listed as "*strongly
recommended*" (emphasis theirs) in the mailman interface and is the
default.  I've just followed their advice for a long time, but I see
problems cropping up again and again, thus I'm willing to revisit the
question.

The change takes me two seconds to make, so I just want to hear if
people really would be happier with it being made.

Cheers,

f
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[Thomas Kluyver-2]

On 10 February 2012 00:41, Fernando Perez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Note that the setting we're using is listed as "*strongly
recommended*" (emphasis theirs) in the mailman interface and is the
default.  I've just followed their advice for a long time, but I see
problems cropping up again and again, thus I'm willing to revisit the
question.

I don't administer any lists myself, but on most lists I reply to, replies seem to go to the list. Maybe this is the default for google groups? For myself, I'm ambivalent about it, as I'm used to doing reply-all now, but people often get caught out.

Are non-members allowed to post to these lists? If we do change the setting, people will answer questions directly to the list, so if the asker isn't subscribed, they may never get a response.

Thomas

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[Fernando Perez]

Hey

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 4:55 PM, MinRK <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've always preferred lists that set reply-to as the list address.  Does the
> 'strong recommendation' have a reason behind it?

Copying from the mailman admin page on this setting:

"""
reply_goes_to_list (general): Where are replies to list messages
directed? Poster is strongly recommended for most mailing lists.

This option controls what Mailman does to the Reply-To: header in
messages flowing through this mailing list. When set to Poster, no
Reply-To: header is added by Mailman, although if one is present in
the original message, it is not stripped. Setting this value to either
This list or Explicit address causes Mailman to insert a specific
Reply-To: header in all messages, overriding the header in the
original message if necessary (Explicit address inserts the value of
reply_to_address).

There are many reasons not to introduce or override the Reply-To:
header. One is that some posters depend on their own Reply-To:
settings to convey their valid return address. Another is that
modifying Reply-To: makes it much more difficult to send private
replies. See `Reply-To' Munging Considered Harmful for a general
discussion of this issue. See Reply-To Munging Considered Useful for a
dissenting opinion.

Some mailing lists have restricted posting privileges, with a parallel
list devoted to discussions. Examples are `patches' or `checkin'
lists, where software changes are posted by a revision control system,
but discussion about the changes occurs on a developers mailing list.
To support these types of mailing lists, select Explicit address and
set the Reply-To: address below to point to the parallel list.
"""

Cheers,

f
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[Fernando Perez]

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Thomas Kluyver <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Are non-members allowed to post to these lists? If we do change the setting,
> people will answer questions directly to the list, so if the asker isn't
> subscribed, they may never get a response.

Nope, we don't allow non-subscriber postings.  I think we did allow
it early on, but doing that is a spam magnet, so I have no plans on
changing it.  One minute dealing with spam in my life is one minute I
don't get back, so I'm OK with fairly draconian measures to prevent
it.

Cheers,

f
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[Matthew Brett]

Yo,

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Fernando Perez <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey folks,
>
> it seems we keep on getting people confused by the need to hit
> reply-all.  There's endless debates on the merits of either approach
> online and I'm not super-interested in a deep, philosophical
> discussion about the well-being of the internet, just on making a
> simple and pragmatic decision that works *for us*.
>
> I'm so used to typing 'a' (the gmail shortcut for reply-all) that this
> has never bothered me, but I'm ok changing.  I can always manually
> change it to reply to the poster only if I want...
>
> Note that the setting we're using is listed as "*strongly
> recommended*" (emphasis theirs) in the mailman interface and is the
> default.  I've just followed their advice for a long time, but I see
> problems cropping up again and again, thus I'm willing to revisit the
> question.

I accepted the default for the mailing lists I administer and
eventually changed them all to reply-to-list having got bored of
constantly having to remind people to post to the list.

It seems to me the arguments for reply-to sender rather than list are
pretty weak, and the disadvantage is rather strong.  I've never had
anyone complain after I switched, for example.

See you,

Matthew
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[Fernando Perez]

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I accepted the default for the mailing lists I administer and
> eventually changed them all to reply-to-list having got bored of
> constantly having to remind people to post to the list.
>
> It seems to me the arguments for reply-to sender rather than list are
> pretty weak, and the disadvantage is rather strong.  I've never had
> anyone complain after I switched, for example.

This is precisely the kind of feedback I was looking for, thanks!

Given your points and the feedback from others as well, I've changed
both -user and -dev.

Cheers,

f
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[Robert Kern-2]

On 2/10/12 4:31 AM, Fernando Perez wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Matthew Brett<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>> I accepted the default for the mailing lists I administer and
>> eventually changed them all to reply-to-list having got bored of
>> constantly having to remind people to post to the list.
>>
>> It seems to me the arguments for reply-to sender rather than list are
>> pretty weak, and the disadvantage is rather strong.  I've never had
>> anyone complain after I switched, for example.
>
> This is precisely the kind of feedback I was looking for, thanks!
>
> Given your points and the feedback from others as well, I've changed
> both -user and -dev.

And there was much rejoicing!

--
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
  an underlying truth."
   -- Umberto Eco

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[Jason Grout-5]

On 2/9/12 7:42 PM, Matthew Brett wrote:
> It seems to me the arguments for reply-to sender rather than list are
> pretty weak, and the disadvantage is rather strong.  I've never had
> anyone complain after I switched, for example.

+1.  It seems that reply-to-list reflects the attitude that all
conversation should occur on-list (i.e., we are all conversing in a
group discussion), whereas the reply-to-sender reflects the attitude
that much conversation should be started on the list, but then carried
out off-list (i.e., we use the list as a coordination point, but most
discussions are between individual people).  I think it's better in the
situation to support the former as the default.

Jason
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[Fernando Perez]

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 2:13 AM, Robert Kern <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Given your points and the feedback from others as well, I've changed
>> both -user and -dev.
>
> And there was much rejoicing!

We aim to please :)
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[Fernando Perez]

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 5:47 AM, Jason Grout
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> +1.  It seems that reply-to-list reflects the attitude that all
> conversation should occur on-list (i.e., we are all conversing in a
> group discussion), whereas the reply-to-sender reflects the attitude
> that much conversation should be started on the list, but then carried
> out off-list (i.e., we use the list as a coordination point, but most
> discussions are between individual people).  I think it's better in the
> situation to support the former as the default.

That's a very good way to put it, and indeed now that I have more
experience with this, I concur with Matthew's view that the arguments
the mailman interface proposes for 'strongly' supporting
reply-to-poster are fairly weak.

One little good thing done, a million and counting to go... :)

Cheers,

f
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