Suggestions idle-dev

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Suggestions idle-dev

phelix
Over the last couple of months I have collected a couple of small but imho important modifications / bugs to make working with IDLE smoother. But I would prefer very much to discuss these in a more active environment.

Taking part in IDLE-development seems very hard, though it really does not have to be. On the code-side everything is fine but marketing-wise things are not so good. Just take this mailing list. I am in my thirties and to me it looks like from the stone age. Who wants his eMail-account spammed with a mailing list? I would prefer a regular forum and I think a lot of people would, especially the younger ones.

Also this list is hard to find. It is not mentioned anywhere on the idle-homepage and not very obvious in the program.

Compare the spyder homepage and the idle-homepage:
http://packages.python.org/spyder/
http://docs.python.org/library/idle.html
I am not talking about fancy graphics but only missing information.

Why not display something in the splash-screen like: idle development is easy, contribute at ...

I really like working with IDLE and it being coded in Python and easy to modify and all but seing how slow it is improving makes me sad. Especially the small things count for a smooth workflow.

Very many people start out with IDLE and it is a missed chance to give them an unsmooth IDE.

best,

=Phelix=
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

phil jones-5
I agree. It would be nice to get into hacking on Idle, but I've never
really found my way into it.

A couple of things. Is there a source-code repository on Github (or
some Mercurial equivalent) where everyone can see the
work-in-progress?

Is IDLE still part of the Python standard package? I use Ubuntu and I
always find I have to install Idle separately from Python. I don't
know if this is a Ubuntu perversity or whether Idle is now a
stand-alone thing. Given that people always seem to have problems
getting patches into the standard distribution maybe stand-alone would
be better. But who would make this decision?

I don't have a problem with a mailing list. But I agree, a URL to an
idle-dev central (place for developers hang out with links to this
mailing list, the repository, IRC etc.) would be great.

phil

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 12:07 AM, phelix <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Over the last couple of months I have collected a couple of small but imho
> important modifications / bugs to make working with IDLE smoother. But I
> would prefer very much to discuss these in a more active environment.
>
> Taking part in IDLE-development seems very hard, though it really does not
> have to be. On the code-side everything is fine but marketing-wise things
> are not so good. Just take this mailing list. I am in my thirties and to me
> it looks like from the stone age. Who wants his eMail-account spammed with a
> mailing list? I would prefer a regular forum and I think a lot of people
> would, especially the younger ones.
>
> Also this list is hard to find. It is not mentioned anywhere on the
> idle-homepage and not very obvious in the program.
>
> Compare the spyder homepage and the idle-homepage:
> http://packages.python.org/spyder/ http://packages.python.org/spyder/
> http://docs.python.org/library/idle.html
> http://docs.python.org/library/idle.html
> I am not talking about fancy graphics but only missing information.
>
> Why not display something in the splash-screen like: idle development is
> easy, contribute at ...
>
> I really like working with IDLE and it being coded in Python and easy to
> modify and all but seing how slow it is improving makes me sad. Especially
> the small things count for a smooth workflow.
>
> Very many people start out with IDLE and it is a missed chance to give them
> an unsmooth IDE.
>
> best,
>
> =Phelix=
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Suggestions-idle-dev-tp31383544p31383544.html
> Sent from the Python - idle-dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

Ned Deily
In article <BANLkTinHUC8q=[hidden email]>,
 phil jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 12:07 AM, phelix <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Over the last couple of months I have collected a couple of small but imho
> > important modifications / bugs to make working with IDLE smoother. But I
> > would prefer very much to discuss these in a more active environment.
> >
> > Taking part in IDLE-development seems very hard, though it really does not
> > have to be. On the code-side everything is fine but marketing-wise things
> > are not so good. Just take this mailing list. I am in my thirties and to me
> > it looks like from the stone age. Who wants his eMail-account spammed with
> > a
> > mailing list? I would prefer a regular forum and I think a lot of people
> > would, especially the younger ones.
> >
> > Also this list is hard to find. It is not mentioned anywhere on the
> > idle-homepage and not very obvious in the program.

The IDLE-dev mailing list is one of many hosted by python.org.  See
http://www.python.org/community/lists/ for the link to the complete list
here:  http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo

If you would prefer other formats, the mailing list is mirrored
elsewhere.  In particular, gmane.org offers a bi-directional mirror of
the list is several formats, including web-based blog and NNTP newsfeeds:
   
   http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.idle

> A couple of things. Is there a source-code repository on Github (or
> some Mercurial equivalent) where everyone can see the
> work-in-progress?

IDLE is part of the Python standard library.  It resides in Lib/idlelib
with the Python source tree.  The "default" branch of the tree is where
all feature work happens; it will be what is released as Python 3.3.  
You can view the source here:
    http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/default/Lib/idlelib

The code for other branches can be viewed here:
    http://hg.python.org/cpython/branches
where 3.2 is what is in progress for 3.2.1, 3.1 for 3.1.4 (likely the
last bug fix release for 3.1), and 2.7 for 2.7.2.  Older branches are
closed except for critical security fixes.

There is a newly written Python Developer's Guide which describes the
whole process of how to develop and contribute fixes and features for
Python in general.  It applies to IDLE as well:

   http://docs.python.org/devguide/

> Is IDLE still part of the Python standard package? I use Ubuntu and I
> always find I have to install Idle separately from Python. I don't
> know if this is a Ubuntu perversity or whether Idle is now a
> stand-alone thing. Given that people always seem to have problems
> getting patches into the standard distribution maybe stand-alone would
> be better. But who would make this decision?

Some distributors of Python, like Ubuntu and Debian, choose to break out
IDLE and other parts of the standard library into separate packages.  
Other distributions, like those from python.org/downloads, do not.  
Presumably, the rationale for making IDLE a separate package might be
because of its dependency on Tcl/Tk.  Technically, IDLE uses the Python
standard library Tkinter module which is dependent on Tcl/Tk.

IMO, that dependency on Tcl/Tk is both IDLE's strength and weakness.  (I
should state that these are my opinions based on working on various
recent fixes for IDLE on Mac OS X and not so much as an IDLE user.) The
plus is that Tk is implemented on many platforms and thus gives IDLE and
other Tkinter-based graphical apps high-level platform independence.  
But the weakness is that Tcl/Tk itself is aging and does not always
provide a native look-and-feel.  Or there are significant compromises
made on a platform to maintain that platform independence.  (The various
Mac OS X "native" Tcl/Tk implementations are a prime example.)  Longer
term, a replacement for IDLE using a more modern GUI interface would be
an interesting project.   That really means finding a replacement for
Tkinter in the standard library.  One of the most promising efforts for
that is Greg Ewing's PyGUI project:

   http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/python_gui/

I'd love to see someone try to reimplement IDLE using it.  That would go
a long way towards helping to "get the library and its documentation
included in the core Python distribution", a stated goal of PyGUI.

In the mean time, both IDLE and Tkinter are underrepresented in the
Python development community.  They both could use more help.  Your
patches are welcome.   The best thing to do is to follow the standard
process outlined in the devguide and submit patches through the standard
bug tracker.

Another big, big help would be to update and test submitted patches on
the various Tk platforms: Windows, Unix X-windows, Mac OS X Aqua.  
Reporting the results on the bug tracker can help to move things along.  
I, for one, would be much more likely to commit a fix if there were
independent confirmation that it is up-to-date and works as documented
(which implies some sort of documentation, too).

And yet another big area is documentation for IDLE.  Currently, it is
very sparse, between IDLE's build-in help file and the standard docs.  
The source for both are included in the source tree so doc patches for
them would also be very welcome.

At the moment, there are no tests for IDLE that I am aware of, at least
in the standard library.  This is a big problem for developers (like me)
when wanting to add fixes or features.  Currently, there is no way to
regression test fixes without time-consuming hit-or-miss manual testing
which really needs to be done on at least what I think of as the three
major variants (Windows, OS X, X11).  Few people have the know-how or
setup to do that.  Python has a good and growing test base but very
little at the moment for GUI testing.  An IDLE test base would be a huge
step forward in that area.

So, lots of ideas and possibilities.  As with most all-volunteer open
source projects, what happens is really up to those of us who step up
and dig in.

--
 Ned Deily,
 [hidden email]

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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

phelix
>The IDLE-dev mailing list is one of many hosted by python.org.  See
>http://www.python.org/community/lists/ for the link to the complete list
>here:  http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo
I saw that. Only the main python discussion list is a newsgroup?

>If you would prefer other formats, the mailing list is mirrored
>elsewhere.  In particular, gmane.org offers a bi-directional mirror of
>the list is several formats, including web-based blog and NNTP newsfeeds:
I am using old.nabble.com. But for someone not used to this stuff it is quite hard to get in compared to a forum. Maybe these alternative ways should be mentioned on the idle-dev list site http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev or on the IDLE homepage.

>There is a newly written Python Developer's Guide which describes the
>whole process of how to develop and contribute fixes and features for
>Python in general.  It applies to IDLE as well:
>
>   http://docs.python.org/devguide/
this sounds good, I will take a look at that

>...
>term, a replacement for IDLE using a more modern GUI interface would be
>an interesting project.   That really means finding a replacement for
>Tkinter in the standard library. One of the most promising efforts for
>that is Greg Ewing's PyGUI project:
>
>   http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/python_gui/
I'd love to see that project florish, too. But Tkinter does look native with ttk. And it is very easy to use.

>In the mean time, both IDLE and Tkinter are underrepresented in the
>Python development community.  They both could use more help.  Your
I could not agree more, IDLE simply gets lost.

>And yet another big area is documentation for IDLE.  Currently, it is
>very sparse, between IDLE's build-in help file and the standard docs.  
>The source for both are included in the source tree so doc patches for
>them would also be very welcome.
Doc patches seem really complicated to me. What about a wiki?

I would like to make my suggestions more concrete:
* easy access to idle-dev and/or description on the IDLE homepage
* a wiki for IDLE development
* a wiki for using IDLE
* a bug-tracker aside from Python bug-tracker
* a feature-tracker
* all this accessible from the homepage
* an invitation to contribute on the IDLE startup console or at least the about window and installer

=Phelix=
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

phil jones-5
I can't help noticing that IDLE has a history of people forking it in
order to get development work done faster (ie. Idlefork, VIDLE etc.)

So it seems that to ramp up progress we may need our own space. (Eg.a
wiki, a mercurial (or git) code repository, a bug tracker).

Ideally, perhaps there could be a continuity with those other projects
- are the people behind Idlefork and VIDLE reading this list? I know
that those projects had specific goals, but I wonder whether there
isn't a role for a standard Idle-fork project kept somewhere like
Github or Butbucket which everyone who's interested in further
development of Idle could work against.

I know there'd still be an issue of getting this back into the main
Python tree, but if it took off (and IDLE development was seen to have
more direction and be moving faster) then there'd be more of an
incentive for the rest of the Python development community to support
that too.

phil

>
> I would like to make my suggestions more concrete:
> * easy access to idle-dev and/or description on the IDLE homepage
> * a wiki for IDLE development
> * a wiki for using IDLE
> * a bug-tracker aside from Python bug-tracker
> * a feature-tracker
> * all this accessible from the homepage
> * an invitation to contribute on the IDLE startup console or at least the
> about window and installer
>
> =Phelix=
_______________________________________________
IDLE-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

Bruce Sherwood
I'm associated with VIDLE and I read this list. VIDLE was created by
David Scherer and Guilherme Polo, neither of whom is now an active
developer. I worked with them but over the years have not contributed
much to this myself. I did however make a version that runs on Python
3. I'm the main developer of VPython (an easy to use 3D programming
environment, see vpython.org) and I bundle VIDLE with the Windows and
Mac installers for VPython, and offer a VIDLE package for Linux.

My own strong interest in IDLE springs from being co-author of an
intro physics curriculum (matterandinteractions.org) within which
thousands of college engineering and science students each semester
write Python programs, using the VPython module, to model physical
systems in 3D. Because few of these students have ever written a line
of code before coming to the physics course, IDLE is vitally important
as a lightweight, easy to use IDE.

Bruce

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:56 AM, phil jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I can't help noticing that IDLE has a history of people forking it in
> order to get development work done faster (ie. Idlefork, VIDLE etc.)
>
> So it seems that to ramp up progress we may need our own space. (Eg.a
> wiki, a mercurial (or git) code repository, a bug tracker).
>
> Ideally, perhaps there could be a continuity with those other projects
> - are the people behind Idlefork and VIDLE reading this list? I know
> that those projects had specific goals, but I wonder whether there
> isn't a role for a standard Idle-fork project kept somewhere like
> Github or Butbucket which everyone who's interested in further
> development of Idle could work against.
>
> I know there'd still be an issue of getting this back into the main
> Python tree, but if it took off (and IDLE development was seen to have
> more direction and be moving faster) then there'd be more of an
> incentive for the rest of the Python development community to support
> that too.
>
> phil
>
>>
>> I would like to make my suggestions more concrete:
>> * easy access to idle-dev and/or description on the IDLE homepage
>> * a wiki for IDLE development
>> * a wiki for using IDLE
>> * a bug-tracker aside from Python bug-tracker
>> * a feature-tracker
>> * all this accessible from the homepage
>> * an invitation to contribute on the IDLE startup console or at least the
>> about window and installer
>>
>> =Phelix=
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
_______________________________________________
IDLE-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

Terry Reedy
In reply to this post by phelix
On 4/12/2011 7:07 PM, phelix wrote:

> Taking part in IDLE-development seems very hard, though it really does not
> have to be. On the code-side everything is fine but marketing-wise things
> are not so good. Just take this mailing list. I am in my thirties and to me
> it looks like from the stone age. Who wants his eMail-account spammed with a

Like it or not, most Python development takes place via the tracker
(effectively the 'forum') and mailing lists. Python-list is mirrored to
comp.lang.python. Most of the lists are mirrored to gmane.comp.python.x
at news.gmane.org, including this one.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

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IDLE-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

Terry Reedy
In reply to this post by phil jones-5
On 4/13/2011 5:56 AM, phil jones wrote:

> So it seems that to ramp up progress we may need our own space. (Eg.a
> wiki, a mercurial (or git) code repository, a bug tracker).

Once I get set up with hg on a new machine, I plan to establish (or ask
whoever to establish) a shared IDLE respository on hg.python.org,
perhaps 'features/idle'. That will make trading and testing code much
easier.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

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http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

phil jones-5
Yes. Terry, that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking. If
there's a place for people interested in IDLE to exchange and
synchronise their patches without waiting for things to get into the
main "trunk" on Python then this can accelerate development and
motivate more people to get involved.

phil

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Terry Reedy <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4/13/2011 5:56 AM, phil jones wrote:
>
>> So it seems that to ramp up progress we may need our own space. (Eg.a
>> wiki, a mercurial (or git) code repository, a bug tracker).
>
> Once I get set up with hg on a new machine, I plan to establish (or ask
> whoever to establish) a shared IDLE respository on hg.python.org, perhaps
> 'features/idle'. That will make trading and testing code much easier.
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
_______________________________________________
IDLE-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

phelix
In reply to this post by Terry Reedy
>Like it or not, most Python development takes place via the tracker
>(effectively the 'forum') and mailing lists. Python-list is mirrored to
>comp.lang.python. Most of the lists are mirrored to gmane.comp.python.x
>at news.gmane.org, including this one.
But where is a new user supposed to find this information? For someone coming frome outside it is hard to grasp all these structures. To get a quick start without frustration quickstart information should be available on the IDLE-homepage.

=phelix=
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

Ned Deily
In article <[hidden email]>, phelix <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> >Like it or not, most Python development takes place via the tracker
> >(effectively the 'forum') and mailing lists. Python-list is mirrored to
> >comp.lang.python. Most of the lists are mirrored to gmane.comp.python.x
> >at news.gmane.org, including this one.
> But where is a new user supposed to find this information? For someone
> coming frome outside it is hard to grasp all these structures. To get a
> quick start without frustration quickstart information should be available
> on the IDLE-homepage.

What IDLE homepage?  If you are referring to either

   http://docs.python.org/py3k/library/idle.html
or
   http://docs.python.org/library/idle.html

they are part of the Python documentation set.  The Python Developer's
Guide includes a section on helping with the documentation:

    http://docs.python.org/devguide/docquality.html

--
 Ned Deily,
 [hidden email]

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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

phil jones-5
In reply to this post by phil jones-5
Hi Terry,

did you get any further towards making an idledev hg repository? Do
people on this list generally agree with the idea?

phil

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:28 PM, phil jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes. Terry, that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking. If
> there's a place for people interested in IDLE to exchange and
> synchronise their patches without waiting for things to get into the
> main "trunk" on Python then this can accelerate development and
> motivate more people to get involved.
>
> phil
>
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Terry Reedy <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 4/13/2011 5:56 AM, phil jones wrote:
>>
>>> So it seems that to ramp up progress we may need our own space. (Eg.a
>>> wiki, a mercurial (or git) code repository, a bug tracker).
>>
>> Once I get set up with hg on a new machine, I plan to establish (or ask
>> whoever to establish) a shared IDLE respository on hg.python.org, perhaps
>> 'features/idle'. That will make trading and testing code much easier.
>>
>> --
>> Terry Jan Reedy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IDLE-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>>
>
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[hidden email]
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Re: Suggestions idle-dev

Terry Reedy
On 4/26/2011 7:36 AM, phil jones wrote:

> did you get any further towards making an idledev hg repository?

I am still not ready to work on IDLE yet.

> Do people on this list generally agree with the idea?

It will be available to anyone who wants to use it.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

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[hidden email]
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