Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

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Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Kevin Daum
I have submitted two pull requests for the code of conduct:
  • #84, to let folks who belong to a wide variety of social identities know that yes, even they are welcome here, and
  • #86, to make explicit the currently implicit policy that someone's abusive behavior outside the django community may have an adverse effect on their ability to participate within the django community.
I welcome your feedback. 

Thanks,
Kevin Daum

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Benjamin Scherrey-2
Number 84 sounds fine. #86 is just looking for trouble. You were wise in 84 to keep it positive and not enumerate a list of "banned" behaviour. To have 86 be anything beyond providing a weapon to be used by anyone looking to be "victimized" in order to silence those whom they disagree with, you would have to absolutely list the behaviours you don't want to tolerate. Frankly 84 is about toleration and acceptance whereas 86 can do nothing but increase intolerance ultimately.

best regards,

-- Ben Scherrey

On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 8:10 AM, Kevin Daum <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have submitted two pull requests for the code of conduct:
  • #84, to let folks who belong to a wide variety of social identities know that yes, even they are welcome here, and
  • #86, to make explicit the currently implicit policy that someone's abusive behavior outside the django community may have an adverse effect on their ability to participate within the django community.
I welcome your feedback. 

Thanks,
Kevin Daum

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Daniele Procida-3
On Sun, Sep 7, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Number 84 sounds fine. #86 is just looking for trouble. You were wise in 84
>to keep it positive and not enumerate a list of "banned" behaviour. To have
>86 be anything beyond providing a weapon to be used by anyone looking to be
>"victimized" in order to silence those whom they disagree with, you would
>have to absolutely list the behaviours you don't want to tolerate. Frankly
>84 is about toleration and acceptance whereas 86 can do nothing but
>increase intolerance ultimately.

The only change of substance in <https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86> is the addition of one sentence:

    In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a
    person's ability to participate within them.

which is the case already - this just makes it explicit.

"May affect" give us plenty of scope for a measured and proportionate response - it may just mean we watch them more carefully.

Daniele

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Benjamin Scherrey-2
Daniele,

    Nothing you've written disagrees with what I said, nor do you address the core concern I bring up about the "change of substance" which is chock full of opportunities for the law of unintended consequences to come up and bite us all. Re-reading the existing documents, I find that this language introduces an entirely different tone to the language of these policies and, again, implies some dangerous precedents beyond what the writers may intend. Whether intentional or not, they aren't good and should be avoided.

-- Ben

On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Daniele Procida <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 7, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Number 84 sounds fine. #86 is just looking for trouble. You were wise in 84
>to keep it positive and not enumerate a list of "banned" behaviour. To have
>86 be anything beyond providing a weapon to be used by anyone looking to be
>"victimized" in order to silence those whom they disagree with, you would
>have to absolutely list the behaviours you don't want to tolerate. Frankly
>84 is about toleration and acceptance whereas 86 can do nothing but
>increase intolerance ultimately.

The only change of substance in <https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86> is the addition of one sentence:

    In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a
    person's ability to participate within them.

which is the case already - this just makes it explicit.

"May affect" give us plenty of scope for a measured and proportionate response - it may just mean we watch them more carefully.

Daniele

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Daniele Procida-3
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>    Nothing you've written disagrees with what I said, nor do you address
>the core concern I bring up about the "change of substance" which is chock
>full of opportunities for the law of unintended consequences to come up and
>bite us all.

What in your opinion is (or was) the "change of substance" in <https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86>?

I didn't see any but a very minor one, that only makes explicit something that was already the case.

>Re-reading the existing documents, I find that this language
>introduces an entirely different tone to the language of these policies
>and, again, implies some dangerous precedents beyond what the writers may
>intend.

Which language in pull request 86?

Daniele

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Benjamin Scherrey-2
I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR 86 is:

"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and index.html. 

I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that was already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely impossible to reasonably enforce or expect. I hope that what is occurring is simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to support an encourage the participation of all individuals. So what is this code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of the world? Fortunately there is, literally, a list:

  <ul>
    <li>Violent threats or language directed against another person.</li>
    <li>Sexist, racist, or otherwise discriminatory jokes and language.</li>
    <li>Posting sexually explicit or violent material.</li>
    <li>Posting (or threatening to post) other people's personally identifying information ("doxing").</li>
    <li>Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms.</li>
    <li>Unwelcome sexual attention.</li>
    <li>Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.</li>
    <li>Repeated harassment of others. In general, if someone asks you to stop, then stop.</li>
  </ul>

So lets see... anyone who has done any of the following completely outside the context of the Django community or forums is now not welcome to participate:

1) Ever threatened to or actually spank their children.
2) Ever used violence or threat there-of to defend another person from same.
3) Ever posted a naked or somewhat explicit picture of themselves or others in a private message to another person or in a forum, such as a photo site like flickr.
4) Dox'd a person who is clearly engaging in criminal activity under a pretense of anonymity.
5) Ever repeated a joke with sexual or racial content.
6) Ever asked someone out or complemented another person on their looks who didn't want it.
7) Said it's ok for someone to do any of the above.
8) Said or did it twice.

Seriously?!?! This *is* really what you're saying. (BTW - I've done all of the above at one time or another so ban me now.)

Of course some of these (but not all - and it depends a lot about whom) may seem outrageous but they are true to the letter of the code of conduct. I agree these things probably don't belong in the context of a Django discussion or group but I do not believe you can enforce elimination this conduct outside of same. And - then there's just the ability to agree to disagree. One can very credibly argue that many religions or political philosophies are racist, sexist, etc. Are all practicing members of same now banned from participation in Django? This RP language says yes.

Now that I have, again, been responsive to your dismissal of my objections, please do me the courtesy of re-reading my original (and this) email and attempt to be responsive to it's content.

thank you,

  -- Ben Scherrey

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:04 AM, Daniele Procida <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>    Nothing you've written disagrees with what I said, nor do you address
>the core concern I bring up about the "change of substance" which is chock
>full of opportunities for the law of unintended consequences to come up and
>bite us all.

What in your opinion is (or was) the "change of substance" in <https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86>?

I didn't see any but a very minor one, that only makes explicit something that was already the case.

>Re-reading the existing documents, I find that this language
>introduces an entirely different tone to the language of these policies
>and, again, implies some dangerous precedents beyond what the writers may
>intend.

Which language in pull request 86?

Daniele

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Stephen Burrows
Ben,

Just to clarify, it sounds like what you're saying is the following: If there were a member of the django community who (may this never be the case) was harassing members of the django community, but limited their harassment to non-django-specific forums, you would want it to not affect their participation in django spaces.

Is that correct? If so, is that a blanket statement or does it depend in your mind what exactly they've done? For example, what if they had a single hateful tweet? What if they had five? What if they orchestrated a harassment campaign that drove someone from their home?

Where would you draw the line?

I would also like to point out that the code of conduct doesn't seem to contain any statements about how it's enforced. Generally speaking, policies like this operate with a certain number of warnings, followed by escalation if that doesn't stick - except in extreme cases. It even says explicitly *in* the policy:

Don’t forget that it is human to err and blaming each other doesn’t get us anywhere, rather offer to help resolving issues and to help learn from mistakes.

I understand that you're concerned about the application of the policy, but it seems like you're (perhaps unintentionally) exaggerating the scope and purpose of the policy to support your point. 

--Stephen


On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:16 AM, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:
I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR 86 is:

"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and index.html. 

I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that was already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely impossible to reasonably enforce or expect. I hope that what is occurring is simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to support an encourage the participation of all individuals. So what is this code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of the world? Fortunately there is, literally, a list:

  <ul>
    <li>Violent threats or language directed against another person.</li>
    <li>Sexist, racist, or otherwise discriminatory jokes and language.</li>
    <li>Posting sexually explicit or violent material.</li>
    <li>Posting (or threatening to post) other people's personally identifying information ("doxing").</li>
    <li>Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms.</li>
    <li>Unwelcome sexual attention.</li>
    <li>Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.</li>
    <li>Repeated harassment of others. In general, if someone asks you to stop, then stop.</li>
  </ul>

So lets see... anyone who has done any of the following completely outside the context of the Django community or forums is now not welcome to participate:

1) Ever threatened to or actually spank their children.
2) Ever used violence or threat there-of to defend another person from same.
3) Ever posted a naked or somewhat explicit picture of themselves or others in a private message to another person or in a forum, such as a photo site like flickr.
4) Dox'd a person who is clearly engaging in criminal activity under a pretense of anonymity.
5) Ever repeated a joke with sexual or racial content.
6) Ever asked someone out or complemented another person on their looks who didn't want it.
7) Said it's ok for someone to do any of the above.
8) Said or did it twice.

Seriously?!?! This *is* really what you're saying. (BTW - I've done all of the above at one time or another so ban me now.)

Of course some of these (but not all - and it depends a lot about whom) may seem outrageous but they are true to the letter of the code of conduct. I agree these things probably don't belong in the context of a Django discussion or group but I do not believe you can enforce elimination this conduct outside of same. And - then there's just the ability to agree to disagree. One can very credibly argue that many religions or political philosophies are racist, sexist, etc. Are all practicing members of same now banned from participation in Django? This RP language says yes.

Now that I have, again, been responsive to your dismissal of my objections, please do me the courtesy of re-reading my original (and this) email and attempt to be responsive to it's content.

thank you,

  -- Ben Scherrey

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:04 AM, Daniele Procida <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>    Nothing you've written disagrees with what I said, nor do you address
>the core concern I bring up about the "change of substance" which is chock
>full of opportunities for the law of unintended consequences to come up and
>bite us all.

What in your opinion is (or was) the "change of substance" in <https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86>?

I didn't see any but a very minor one, that only makes explicit something that was already the case.

>Re-reading the existing documents, I find that this language
>introduces an entirely different tone to the language of these policies
>and, again, implies some dangerous precedents beyond what the writers may
>intend.

Which language in pull request 86?

Daniele

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Stephen Burrows
Turns out there *is* a document detailing enforcement policies and it *does* involve a range of possible responses to violations.



On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:30 AM, Stephen Burrows <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ben,

Just to clarify, it sounds like what you're saying is the following: If there were a member of the django community who (may this never be the case) was harassing members of the django community, but limited their harassment to non-django-specific forums, you would want it to not affect their participation in django spaces.

Is that correct? If so, is that a blanket statement or does it depend in your mind what exactly they've done? For example, what if they had a single hateful tweet? What if they had five? What if they orchestrated a harassment campaign that drove someone from their home?

Where would you draw the line?

I would also like to point out that the code of conduct doesn't seem to contain any statements about how it's enforced. Generally speaking, policies like this operate with a certain number of warnings, followed by escalation if that doesn't stick - except in extreme cases. It even says explicitly *in* the policy:

Don’t forget that it is human to err and blaming each other doesn’t get us anywhere, rather offer to help resolving issues and to help learn from mistakes.

I understand that you're concerned about the application of the policy, but it seems like you're (perhaps unintentionally) exaggerating the scope and purpose of the policy to support your point. 

--Stephen


On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:16 AM, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:
I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR 86 is:

"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and index.html. 

I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that was already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely impossible to reasonably enforce or expect. I hope that what is occurring is simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to support an encourage the participation of all individuals. So what is this code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of the world? Fortunately there is, literally, a list:

  <ul>
    <li>Violent threats or language directed against another person.</li>
    <li>Sexist, racist, or otherwise discriminatory jokes and language.</li>
    <li>Posting sexually explicit or violent material.</li>
    <li>Posting (or threatening to post) other people's personally identifying information ("doxing").</li>
    <li>Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms.</li>
    <li>Unwelcome sexual attention.</li>
    <li>Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.</li>
    <li>Repeated harassment of others. In general, if someone asks you to stop, then stop.</li>
  </ul>

So lets see... anyone who has done any of the following completely outside the context of the Django community or forums is now not welcome to participate:

1) Ever threatened to or actually spank their children.
2) Ever used violence or threat there-of to defend another person from same.
3) Ever posted a naked or somewhat explicit picture of themselves or others in a private message to another person or in a forum, such as a photo site like flickr.
4) Dox'd a person who is clearly engaging in criminal activity under a pretense of anonymity.
5) Ever repeated a joke with sexual or racial content.
6) Ever asked someone out or complemented another person on their looks who didn't want it.
7) Said it's ok for someone to do any of the above.
8) Said or did it twice.

Seriously?!?! This *is* really what you're saying. (BTW - I've done all of the above at one time or another so ban me now.)

Of course some of these (but not all - and it depends a lot about whom) may seem outrageous but they are true to the letter of the code of conduct. I agree these things probably don't belong in the context of a Django discussion or group but I do not believe you can enforce elimination this conduct outside of same. And - then there's just the ability to agree to disagree. One can very credibly argue that many religions or political philosophies are racist, sexist, etc. Are all practicing members of same now banned from participation in Django? This RP language says yes.

Now that I have, again, been responsive to your dismissal of my objections, please do me the courtesy of re-reading my original (and this) email and attempt to be responsive to it's content.

thank you,

  -- Ben Scherrey

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:04 AM, Daniele Procida <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>    Nothing you've written disagrees with what I said, nor do you address
>the core concern I bring up about the "change of substance" which is chock
>full of opportunities for the law of unintended consequences to come up and
>bite us all.

What in your opinion is (or was) the "change of substance" in <https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86>?

I didn't see any but a very minor one, that only makes explicit something that was already the case.

>Re-reading the existing documents, I find that this language
>introduces an entirely different tone to the language of these policies
>and, again, implies some dangerous precedents beyond what the writers may
>intend.

Which language in pull request 86?

Daniele

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Robert Grant
In reply to this post by Benjamin Scherrey-2
Yeah I agree with Ben; this is one of those highly conservative things that might sound good, but just allow more and more extreme responses to nonconformist behaviour. Every unpleasant system at some point had good intentions, and asked the question, "But why wouldn't you want people to be like this?"

The answer is: I don't know, but there are almost certainly things that the current lack of rules allow that I also like, and I won't like it when they're gone.

Similarly, as Ben makes clear, while you may intend one thing when writing down rules, you actually open them up to any interpretation, and things can get much more extreme than you intended. That's one of the reasons people start liberal but become conservative; they want change, but no, we didn't think anyone would ever do that! And if you say, "But we won't let things go bad" then the obvious answer is: you have written rules, or you have dictators. Having both is the same as having dictators. All it'll do is expose inconsistencies when the dictators don't like unforseen implications of rules, and so override them, or they'll interpret the rules in non-obvious ways to get people to stop doing things they feel they're allowed to do (e.g. people call smacking your kids "beating" them, because "beatings are bad" is a rule we agree with).

But I'm a liberal at heart :) I can see that it's very attractive to be able to come down hard on people who offend you, but without a lot more detail it's probably just going to cause a lot of aggravation and drive people to more liberally educated communities.

The community doesn't seem so vast that it needs self-appointed governers, but possibly I'm wrong there.

On Monday, 8 September 2014 09:16:23 UTC+2, Benjamin Scherrey wrote:
I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR 86 is:

"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and index.html. 

I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that was already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely impossible to reasonably enforce or expect. I hope that what is occurring is simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to support an encourage the participation of all individuals. So what is this code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of the world? Fortunately there is, literally, a list:

  <ul>
    <li>Violent threats or language directed against another person.</li>
    <li>Sexist, racist, or otherwise discriminatory jokes and language.</li>
    <li>Posting sexually explicit or violent material.</li>
    <li>Posting (or threatening to post) other people's personally identifying information ("doxing").</li>
    <li>Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms.</li>
    <li>Unwelcome sexual attention.</li>
    <li>Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.</li>
    <li>Repeated harassment of others. In general, if someone asks you to stop, then stop.</li>
  </ul>

So lets see... anyone who has done any of the following completely outside the context of the Django community or forums is now not welcome to participate:

1) Ever threatened to or actually spank their children.
2) Ever used violence or threat there-of to defend another person from same.
3) Ever posted a naked or somewhat explicit picture of themselves or others in a private message to another person or in a forum, such as a photo site like flickr.
4) Dox'd a person who is clearly engaging in criminal activity under a pretense of anonymity.
5) Ever repeated a joke with sexual or racial content.
6) Ever asked someone out or complemented another person on their looks who didn't want it.
7) Said it's ok for someone to do any of the above.
8) Said or did it twice.

Seriously?!?! This *is* really what you're saying. (BTW - I've done all of the above at one time or another so ban me now.)

Of course some of these (but not all - and it depends a lot about whom) may seem outrageous but they are true to the letter of the code of conduct. I agree these things probably don't belong in the context of a Django discussion or group but I do not believe you can enforce elimination this conduct outside of same. And - then there's just the ability to agree to disagree. One can very credibly argue that many religions or political philosophies are racist, sexist, etc. Are all practicing members of same now banned from participation in Django? This RP language says yes.

Now that I have, again, been responsive to your dismissal of my objections, please do me the courtesy of re-reading my original (and this) email and attempt to be responsive to it's content.

thank you,

  -- Ben Scherrey

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:04 AM, Daniele Procida <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="KIXXsK0KBeMJ" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">dan...@...> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="KIXXsK0KBeMJ" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">prote...@...> wrote:

>    Nothing you've written disagrees with what I said, nor do you address
>the core concern I bring up about the "change of substance" which is chock
>full of opportunities for the law of unintended consequences to come up and
>bite us all.

What in your opinion is (or was) the "change of substance" in <<a href="https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdjangoproject.com%2Fpull%2F86\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFi_PBjsSE2iYcnKG7karAmwq04nw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdjangoproject.com%2Fpull%2F86\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFi_PBjsSE2iYcnKG7karAmwq04nw';return true;">https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86>?

I didn't see any but a very minor one, that only makes explicit something that was already the case.

>Re-reading the existing documents, I find that this language
>introduces an entirely different tone to the language of these policies
>and, again, implies some dangerous precedents beyond what the writers may
>intend.

Which language in pull request 86?

Daniele

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Benjamin Scherrey-2
In reply to this post by Stephen Burrows
Hi Stephen,

   No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that the scope of what is apparently being attempted (precisely as stated) cannot be constrained in a manner that is objective or inline with the rest of the inclusionary aspects of the policy.

   It's already dangerous ground to start enumerating forbidden behaviors. You get the exact problem with Old Testament "thou shall nots". It's arguably easier to enforce or understand it in the context of a Django-relevant forum but it's a real slippery slope to then try to apply it universally.  Your second paragraph are excellent examples of just how impossible it is to make such a policy useful and inline with it's original (presumable but not always) intent.

   Better to have a code of conduct that describes how to behave in an affirmative fashion in the context of Django interactions than to attempt to create a speech and behavior code which lists banned actions. The enforcement document you pointed out in your following post is exactly the kind of absurd hubris that these things inevitably devolve to. Check this out: "If the incident involves physical danger, any member of the working group may -- and should -- act unilaterally to protect safety." The fact that anyone thought it necessary to have to include this content in a policy statement just goes to show how far out these things actually do get interpreted.

   I'm frankly embarrassed for the Django community to have such nonsense as official policy. Is there an actual problem that needs solving here? Do have have some level of incidents that actually violate common sense policies of individual freedom and personal responsibility that we need a conduct code of this far reaching scope? If so I haven't seen it but I am prepared to be educated otherwise.

   Hope that clarifies my concerns and thanx for your response.

  -- Ben Scherrey

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Stephen Burrows <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ben,

Just to clarify, it sounds like what you're saying is the following: If there were a member of the django community who (may this never be the case) was harassing members of the django community, but limited their harassment to non-django-specific forums, you would want it to not affect their participation in django spaces.

Is that correct? If so, is that a blanket statement or does it depend in your mind what exactly they've done? For example, what if they had a single hateful tweet? What if they had five? What if they orchestrated a harassment campaign that drove someone from their home?

Where would you draw the line?

I would also like to point out that the code of conduct doesn't seem to contain any statements about how it's enforced. Generally speaking, policies like this operate with a certain number of warnings, followed by escalation if that doesn't stick - except in extreme cases. It even says explicitly *in* the policy:

Don’t forget that it is human to err and blaming each other doesn’t get us anywhere, rather offer to help resolving issues and to help learn from mistakes.

I understand that you're concerned about the application of the policy, but it seems like you're (perhaps unintentionally) exaggerating the scope and purpose of the policy to support your point. 

--Stephen


On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:16 AM, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:
I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR 86 is:

"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and index.html. 

I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that was already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely impossible to reasonably enforce or expect. I hope that what is occurring is simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to support an encourage the participation of all individuals. So what is this code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of the world? Fortunately there is, literally, a list:

  <ul>
    <li>Violent threats or language directed against another person.</li>
    <li>Sexist, racist, or otherwise discriminatory jokes and language.</li>
    <li>Posting sexually explicit or violent material.</li>
    <li>Posting (or threatening to post) other people's personally identifying information ("doxing").</li>
    <li>Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms.</li>
    <li>Unwelcome sexual attention.</li>
    <li>Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.</li>
    <li>Repeated harassment of others. In general, if someone asks you to stop, then stop.</li>
  </ul>

So lets see... anyone who has done any of the following completely outside the context of the Django community or forums is now not welcome to participate:

1) Ever threatened to or actually spank their children.
2) Ever used violence or threat there-of to defend another person from same.
3) Ever posted a naked or somewhat explicit picture of themselves or others in a private message to another person or in a forum, such as a photo site like flickr.
4) Dox'd a person who is clearly engaging in criminal activity under a pretense of anonymity.
5) Ever repeated a joke with sexual or racial content.
6) Ever asked someone out or complemented another person on their looks who didn't want it.
7) Said it's ok for someone to do any of the above.
8) Said or did it twice.

Seriously?!?! This *is* really what you're saying. (BTW - I've done all of the above at one time or another so ban me now.)

Of course some of these (but not all - and it depends a lot about whom) may seem outrageous but they are true to the letter of the code of conduct. I agree these things probably don't belong in the context of a Django discussion or group but I do not believe you can enforce elimination this conduct outside of same. And - then there's just the ability to agree to disagree. One can very credibly argue that many religions or political philosophies are racist, sexist, etc. Are all practicing members of same now banned from participation in Django? This RP language says yes.

Now that I have, again, been responsive to your dismissal of my objections, please do me the courtesy of re-reading my original (and this) email and attempt to be responsive to it's content.

thank you,

  -- Ben Scherrey

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:04 AM, Daniele Procida <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>    Nothing you've written disagrees with what I said, nor do you address
>the core concern I bring up about the "change of substance" which is chock
>full of opportunities for the law of unintended consequences to come up and
>bite us all.

What in your opinion is (or was) the "change of substance" in <https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86>?

I didn't see any but a very minor one, that only makes explicit something that was already the case.

>Re-reading the existing documents, I find that this language
>introduces an entirely different tone to the language of these policies
>and, again, implies some dangerous precedents beyond what the writers may
>intend.

Which language in pull request 86?

Daniele

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Aymeric Augustin
All,

I appreciate the effort you're putting into explaining your arguments. However, the relationship with the original proposal is becoming increasingly unclear.

Hopefully by now you've voiced your arguments. I think it's time to let the Code of Conduct committee decide whether to accept the proposed changes.

Thanks for your understanding.

-- 
Aymeric.

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Daniele Procida-3
In reply to this post by Benjamin Scherrey-2
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll
>attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR
>86 is:
>
>"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a
>person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and
>index.html.
>
>I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that was
>already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely
>impossible to reasonably enforce or expect.

I can assure you that if we became aware of someone's problematic behaviour then depending on the behaviour we could do anything from keeping a careful eye on the individual to - in extreme cases - banning them from participation.

"Violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them" is correct. It doesn't mean that action will be taken, but that it may be.

That's already the case. If a known harrasser subscribes starts posting to one of our email lists, we might have a quiet word with them, just for example.  

>I hope that what is occurring is
>simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but
>what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must
>comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being
>removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to
>support an encourage the participation of all individuals.

Being removed from the community would be the last, not the first, course of action.

>So what is this
>code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of
>the world?

You've had your points answered twice already, politely both times. If you want to make sarcastic remarks for your own amusement, don't expect any more replies.

Daniele

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Benjamin Scherrey-2
Daniele,

    You're reading me completely wrong. I am not being sarcastic at all. I'm pointing out the absurdity that one style of "code of conduct" inevitably leads to versus another affirmative style which could actually serve it's intended purpose. I'm not against any code - I'm quite specifically supportive of one style and very aware and concerned about the ramifications of the other. I don't know how much more clear I can make the point than I already have.

    Thus far, however, your only response to my actual concern is assurances that people will "do the right thing and be reasonable". Forgive me if that holds absolutely no water with me because, even if I were to trust you personally, you have no power to enforce such an assurance. But I understand that's the best you can do because that is the best that can ever be done with this type of thing. So the only responsible action is don't go there. If you're going to make a policy that is completely open to any individual's interpretation then you've actually set back the community and have laid the foundation to harm to the very thing you're trying to protect. 

    You keep using the term "known harasser" but attempts to codify what that is exactly are impossible via lists of "forbidden speech/actions". I welcome evidence to the contrary but I'm fairly experienced in such matters and don't anticipate any forthcoming. In some circles I might be a bit more forgiving for willfully ignoring these facts. But this is a programming group for goodness sakes! We know how to be specific about things and the dangers of opening up things to ambiguity. We can do better. So given this, why not just go with an affirmative policy stating how people should conduct themselves and demonstrate good intentions without the need to codify "evil things"? I think it accomplishes what you want to do and, best of all, could actually work!

-- Ben Scherrey

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:56 PM, Daniele Procida <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll
>attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR
>86 is:
>
>"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a
>person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and
>index.html.
>
>I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that was
>already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely
>impossible to reasonably enforce or expect.

I can assure you that if we became aware of someone's problematic behaviour then depending on the behaviour we could do anything from keeping a careful eye on the individual to - in extreme cases - banning them from participation.

"Violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them" is correct. It doesn't mean that action will be taken, but that it may be.

That's already the case. If a known harrasser subscribes starts posting to one of our email lists, we might have a quiet word with them, just for example.

>I hope that what is occurring is
>simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but
>what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must
>comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being
>removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to
>support an encourage the participation of all individuals.

Being removed from the community would be the last, not the first, course of action.

>So what is this
>code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of
>the world?

You've had your points answered twice already, politely both times. If you want to make sarcastic remarks for your own amusement, don't expect any more replies.

Daniele

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Stephen Burrows
If you think you could do it better, maybe you should submit your own version for consideration. I assume that's how the process works.


On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:
Daniele,

    You're reading me completely wrong. I am not being sarcastic at all. I'm pointing out the absurdity that one style of "code of conduct" inevitably leads to versus another affirmative style which could actually serve it's intended purpose. I'm not against any code - I'm quite specifically supportive of one style and very aware and concerned about the ramifications of the other. I don't know how much more clear I can make the point than I already have.

    Thus far, however, your only response to my actual concern is assurances that people will "do the right thing and be reasonable". Forgive me if that holds absolutely no water with me because, even if I were to trust you personally, you have no power to enforce such an assurance. But I understand that's the best you can do because that is the best that can ever be done with this type of thing. So the only responsible action is don't go there. If you're going to make a policy that is completely open to any individual's interpretation then you've actually set back the community and have laid the foundation to harm to the very thing you're trying to protect. 

    You keep using the term "known harasser" but attempts to codify what that is exactly are impossible via lists of "forbidden speech/actions". I welcome evidence to the contrary but I'm fairly experienced in such matters and don't anticipate any forthcoming. In some circles I might be a bit more forgiving for willfully ignoring these facts. But this is a programming group for goodness sakes! We know how to be specific about things and the dangers of opening up things to ambiguity. We can do better. So given this, why not just go with an affirmative policy stating how people should conduct themselves and demonstrate good intentions without the need to codify "evil things"? I think it accomplishes what you want to do and, best of all, could actually work!

-- Ben Scherrey

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:56 PM, Daniele Procida <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll
>attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR
>86 is:
>
>"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a
>person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and
>index.html.
>
>I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that was
>already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely
>impossible to reasonably enforce or expect.

I can assure you that if we became aware of someone's problematic behaviour then depending on the behaviour we could do anything from keeping a careful eye on the individual to - in extreme cases - banning them from participation.

"Violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them" is correct. It doesn't mean that action will be taken, but that it may be.

That's already the case. If a known harrasser subscribes starts posting to one of our email lists, we might have a quiet word with them, just for example.

>I hope that what is occurring is
>simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but
>what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must
>comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being
>removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to
>support an encourage the participation of all individuals.

Being removed from the community would be the last, not the first, course of action.

>So what is this
>code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of
>the world?

You've had your points answered twice already, politely both times. If you want to make sarcastic remarks for your own amusement, don't expect any more replies.

Daniele

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Russell Keith-Magee-4
In reply to this post by Kevin Daum
Hi Kevin,

Thanks for these suggestions.

By way of settings expectations - a patch of this nature has a little more procedural overhead than a normal patch, because it requires a change to our community policies. Regardless of the merit (or otherwise) of a specific proposal, a change to these policies needs to be ratified by the core team and the DSF membership before it goes into effect.

Discussions on the ticket itself from people outside those groups is definitely welcome - the broader opinion and attitudes of the community will be considered as part of the ratification process. But it's not something that a small group of people can quickly agree on and commit. 

Russ %-)


On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Kevin Daum <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have submitted two pull requests for the code of conduct:
  • #84, to let folks who belong to a wide variety of social identities know that yes, even they are welcome here, and
  • #86, to make explicit the currently implicit policy that someone's abusive behavior outside the django community may have an adverse effect on their ability to participate within the django community.
I welcome your feedback. 

Thanks,
Kevin Daum

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Kevin Daum
Thanks Russ, I assumed as much, having read https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/changes/. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps Daniele's keynote talk at Djangocon this year, combined with the already very good Django code of conduct, caused me to assume too much of this community's progression towards appreciating both the need of diversity in tech and the actual conditions required to bring that about. 

Benjamin, you asked if there is an actual problem that needs solving. Yes. Absolutely. It is a systemic one within the world of software development and I am excited to be a part of a particular software development community that is taking proactive steps towards the goal of a safe, supportive environment for everyone who is working towards that same goal. The quality of our software will reflect the quality of our community. Here is just a tiny sample of reading for any who are interested in learning why these kinds of policies are so important:

  1. See the recent case of Anita Sarkeesian, which is one sort of situation I have in mind when writing down a policy such as this:
    https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160/photo/1
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/gaming-vlogger-anita-sarkeesian-is-forced-from-home-after-receiving-harrowing-death-threats/
  2. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/abuse-as-ddos, including this bit: "Just like with computer security, you should have plans in place to identify and address attacks. At conferences, user groups, and other events, this can take the form of a code of conduct along with a policy for enforcement. In workplaces, this often takes the form of an employee handbook. These types of policies help mitigate attacks when they happen, so that decisions don’t have to be made on the fly when something goes wrong. These policies are far from perfect fixes for everything, but they’re better than doing nothing."
  3. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-open-source-identity-crisis. By the way, I'm proud that the one time this author links to something django-related, it's this situation in which the core devs wisely and quickly made the right choice.



On Monday, September 8, 2014 9:37:16 PM UTC-4, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
Hi Kevin,

Thanks for these suggestions.

By way of settings expectations - a patch of this nature has a little more procedural overhead than a normal patch, because it requires a change to our community policies. Regardless of the merit (or otherwise) of a specific proposal, a change to these policies needs to be ratified by the core team and the DSF membership before it goes into effect.

Discussions on the ticket itself from people outside those groups is definitely welcome - the broader opinion and attitudes of the community will be considered as part of the ratification process. But it's not something that a small group of people can quickly agree on and commit. 

Russ %-)


On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Kevin Daum <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="_Xem52dcetkJ" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">kevin...@...> wrote:
I have submitted two pull requests for the code of conduct:
  • <a href="https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/84" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdjangoproject.com%2Fpull%2F84\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGguBARfN2vzNDzASho12djmwNcZw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdjangoproject.com%2Fpull%2F84\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGguBARfN2vzNDzASho12djmwNcZw';return true;">#84, to let folks who belong to a wide variety of social identities know that yes, even they are welcome here, and
  • <a href="https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdjangoproject.com%2Fpull%2F86\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFi_PBjsSE2iYcnKG7karAmwq04nw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdjangoproject.com%2Fpull%2F86\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFi_PBjsSE2iYcnKG7karAmwq04nw';return true;">#86, to make explicit the currently implicit policy that someone's abusive behavior outside the django community may have an adverse effect on their ability to participate within the django community.
I welcome your feedback. 

Thanks,
Kevin Daum

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Benjamin Scherrey-2
Hi Kevin,

   And thanx for responding to my question about the need for such a policy with Django. Last night, as I had not yet had a response from anyone about this question I searched the archives of both django groups looking for any events or circumstances in which the code of conduct was invoked as I had no personal recollection of any such thing. I found some innocuous reference in the django-users group (wrongly suggesting that this coming policy was going to increase female participation) and in django-developers, one actual circumstance where its use was threatened - not surprisingly as part of the one example you provided that actually has anything to do at all with the Django community. Sadly, it's invocation was precisely used in the manner that I had feared - to stifle debate and threaten a person who was making valid and reasonable arguments (no doubt in the middle of a flame war but he/she wasn't the flamer). When I saw the name of the person who invoked the code of conduct I was even more disappointed as it was someone that I otherwise have a profound respect for.

    Other than this I was not surprised to see zero evidence for the need for such a policy as there don't seem to be any threatening events of the like that your email raises. These problems may exist elsewhere but not amongst the general django community that I've ever seen. 

    Understand my background. I own a software development company that was a VERY early adopter of Django way before the 1.0 days. I expect I was certainly one of the first thousand developers to use Django in a real-life situation once it got outside of the newspaper where it was created. My company is one of the first to build commercial systems for clients on top of Django. My staff even has a few little commits into the django code base over the years, although minor, but we were proud nonetheless to be able to contribute in some small way. I've attended my share of PyCons (prior to the invention of DjangoCon which I hope to attend one day) and have always found the community very open and inclusive of all types. This is a Good Thing (TM). I've even sent 5 staff to the event, four of which happened to be women. My team now consists of 34+ people, all but two of which are in a technical capacity. WE are geeks who seek out other geeks who want to be appreciated solely based on merit. We happen to have about a 40% female colleague share and explicitly do NOT have a diversity policy (nor will we ever have an HR department but that's another story). I simply am strong at identifying and attracting people with strong potential and the market is so extremely competitive that one must leave no stone unturned in order to find the best. THAT is the one way that a more inclusive group will come into being and for the right reasons.

    So I have actually achieved what everyone is crying out for and can't seem to figure how to accomplish. It wasn't difficult. I'm here to tell you that diversity policies and codes of conduct, in my experience consulting to dozens of commercial, government, and educational organizations in my 30+ years of experience have never once helped achieve their stated goals and, many times, have hurt both the organization and it's intended beneficiaries. True to my experience, the one threatened invocation of the code of conduct for Django fits right in line with my experience of such policies, sadly. 

    Therefore, I hope everyone appreciates that I'm fully invested in Django and attracting the best & brightest into our community. I think you'll see Kevin, that I supported your first PR but have very grave concerns about the second for the reasons I've already gone into great detail about. I do believe completely that both were put forward with good intentions. I'm all for policies that put forward good examples of appreciated behavior and add to the general sense of inclusiveness which I think your first one does. It scares the hell out of me when people start enumerating banned conduct and speech - and I wish more people understood the issue as well as I about why. That's why I'm quite vocal about this.

    Thanx for your time and interest,

   -- Ben Scherrey

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Kevin Daum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks Russ, I assumed as much, having read https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/changes/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps Daniele's keynote talk at Djangocon this year, combined with the already very good Django code of conduct, caused me to assume too much of this community's progression towards appreciating both the need of diversity in tech and the actual conditions required to bring that about. 

Benjamin, you asked if there is an actual problem that needs solving. Yes. Absolutely. It is a systemic one within the world of software development and I am excited to be a part of a particular software development community that is taking proactive steps towards the goal of a safe, supportive environment for everyone who is working towards that same goal. The quality of our software will reflect the quality of our community. Here is just a tiny sample of reading for any who are interested in learning why these kinds of policies are so important:

  1. See the recent case of Anita Sarkeesian, which is one sort of situation I have in mind when writing down a policy such as this:
    https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160/photo/1
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/gaming-vlogger-anita-sarkeesian-is-forced-from-home-after-receiving-harrowing-death-threats/
  2. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/abuse-as-ddos, including this bit: "Just like with computer security, you should have plans in place to identify and address attacks. At conferences, user groups, and other events, this can take the form of a code of conduct along with a policy for enforcement. In workplaces, this often takes the form of an employee handbook. These types of policies help mitigate attacks when they happen, so that decisions don’t have to be made on the fly when something goes wrong. These policies are far from perfect fixes for everything, but they’re better than doing nothing."
  3. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-open-source-identity-crisis. By the way, I'm proud that the one time this author links to something django-related, it's this situation in which the core devs wisely and quickly made the right choice.



On Monday, September 8, 2014 9:37:16 PM UTC-4, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
Hi Kevin,

Thanks for these suggestions.

By way of settings expectations - a patch of this nature has a little more procedural overhead than a normal patch, because it requires a change to our community policies. Regardless of the merit (or otherwise) of a specific proposal, a change to these policies needs to be ratified by the core team and the DSF membership before it goes into effect.

Discussions on the ticket itself from people outside those groups is definitely welcome - the broader opinion and attitudes of the community will be considered as part of the ratification process. But it's not something that a small group of people can quickly agree on and commit. 

Russ %-)


On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Kevin Daum <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have submitted two pull requests for the code of conduct:
  • #84, to let folks who belong to a wide variety of social identities know that yes, even they are welcome here, and
  • #86, to make explicit the currently implicit policy that someone's abusive behavior outside the django community may have an adverse effect on their ability to participate within the django community.
I welcome your feedback. 

Thanks,
Kevin Daum

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Robert Grant
Good email. This one won't be that good.

Boiling my verbose email down to two sentences:

We seem to already have a private group of people who make decisions in secret and pronounce a verdict on issues, and who can to a large extent control the community. If this is the case, and they already have total control should they choose to exercise it, a Django ASBO won't give any extra power over - and thus protection against - griefers/bullies/whatever.

Just to hedge my bets, if the group does decide to create the ASBO, could it be called the Anti-Social Django Act?

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 7:33 AM, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Kevin,

   And thanx for responding to my question about the need for such a policy with Django. Last night, as I had not yet had a response from anyone about this question I searched the archives of both django groups looking for any events or circumstances in which the code of conduct was invoked as I had no personal recollection of any such thing. I found some innocuous reference in the django-users group (wrongly suggesting that this coming policy was going to increase female participation) and in django-developers, one actual circumstance where its use was threatened - not surprisingly as part of the one example you provided that actually has anything to do at all with the Django community. Sadly, it's invocation was precisely used in the manner that I had feared - to stifle debate and threaten a person who was making valid and reasonable arguments (no doubt in the middle of a flame war but he/she wasn't the flamer). When I saw the name of the person who invoked the code of conduct I was even more disappointed as it was someone that I otherwise have a profound respect for.

    Other than this I was not surprised to see zero evidence for the need for such a policy as there don't seem to be any threatening events of the like that your email raises. These problems may exist elsewhere but not amongst the general django community that I've ever seen. 

    Understand my background. I own a software development company that was a VERY early adopter of Django way before the 1.0 days. I expect I was certainly one of the first thousand developers to use Django in a real-life situation once it got outside of the newspaper where it was created. My company is one of the first to build commercial systems for clients on top of Django. My staff even has a few little commits into the django code base over the years, although minor, but we were proud nonetheless to be able to contribute in some small way. I've attended my share of PyCons (prior to the invention of DjangoCon which I hope to attend one day) and have always found the community very open and inclusive of all types. This is a Good Thing (TM). I've even sent 5 staff to the event, four of which happened to be women. My team now consists of 34+ people, all but two of which are in a technical capacity. WE are geeks who seek out other geeks who want to be appreciated solely based on merit. We happen to have about a 40% female colleague share and explicitly do NOT have a diversity policy (nor will we ever have an HR department but that's another story). I simply am strong at identifying and attracting people with strong potential and the market is so extremely competitive that one must leave no stone unturned in order to find the best. THAT is the one way that a more inclusive group will come into being and for the right reasons.

    So I have actually achieved what everyone is crying out for and can't seem to figure how to accomplish. It wasn't difficult. I'm here to tell you that diversity policies and codes of conduct, in my experience consulting to dozens of commercial, government, and educational organizations in my 30+ years of experience have never once helped achieve their stated goals and, many times, have hurt both the organization and it's intended beneficiaries. True to my experience, the one threatened invocation of the code of conduct for Django fits right in line with my experience of such policies, sadly. 

    Therefore, I hope everyone appreciates that I'm fully invested in Django and attracting the best & brightest into our community. I think you'll see Kevin, that I supported your first PR but have very grave concerns about the second for the reasons I've already gone into great detail about. I do believe completely that both were put forward with good intentions. I'm all for policies that put forward good examples of appreciated behavior and add to the general sense of inclusiveness which I think your first one does. It scares the hell out of me when people start enumerating banned conduct and speech - and I wish more people understood the issue as well as I about why. That's why I'm quite vocal about this.

    Thanx for your time and interest,

   -- Ben Scherrey

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Kevin Daum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks Russ, I assumed as much, having read https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/changes/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps Daniele's keynote talk at Djangocon this year, combined with the already very good Django code of conduct, caused me to assume too much of this community's progression towards appreciating both the need of diversity in tech and the actual conditions required to bring that about. 

Benjamin, you asked if there is an actual problem that needs solving. Yes. Absolutely. It is a systemic one within the world of software development and I am excited to be a part of a particular software development community that is taking proactive steps towards the goal of a safe, supportive environment for everyone who is working towards that same goal. The quality of our software will reflect the quality of our community. Here is just a tiny sample of reading for any who are interested in learning why these kinds of policies are so important:

  1. See the recent case of Anita Sarkeesian, which is one sort of situation I have in mind when writing down a policy such as this:
    https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160/photo/1
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/gaming-vlogger-anita-sarkeesian-is-forced-from-home-after-receiving-harrowing-death-threats/
  2. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/abuse-as-ddos, including this bit: "Just like with computer security, you should have plans in place to identify and address attacks. At conferences, user groups, and other events, this can take the form of a code of conduct along with a policy for enforcement. In workplaces, this often takes the form of an employee handbook. These types of policies help mitigate attacks when they happen, so that decisions don’t have to be made on the fly when something goes wrong. These policies are far from perfect fixes for everything, but they’re better than doing nothing."
  3. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-open-source-identity-crisis. By the way, I'm proud that the one time this author links to something django-related, it's this situation in which the core devs wisely and quickly made the right choice.



On Monday, September 8, 2014 9:37:16 PM UTC-4, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
Hi Kevin,

Thanks for these suggestions.

By way of settings expectations - a patch of this nature has a little more procedural overhead than a normal patch, because it requires a change to our community policies. Regardless of the merit (or otherwise) of a specific proposal, a change to these policies needs to be ratified by the core team and the DSF membership before it goes into effect.

Discussions on the ticket itself from people outside those groups is definitely welcome - the broader opinion and attitudes of the community will be considered as part of the ratification process. But it's not something that a small group of people can quickly agree on and commit. 

Russ %-)


On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Kevin Daum <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have submitted two pull requests for the code of conduct:
  • #84, to let folks who belong to a wide variety of social identities know that yes, even they are welcome here, and
  • #86, to make explicit the currently implicit policy that someone's abusive behavior outside the django community may have an adverse effect on their ability to participate within the django community.
I welcome your feedback. 

Thanks,
Kevin Daum

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Kevin Daum
I'm going to attempt to reach out to some folks who I think might be more likely than us to benefit from a code of conduct and ask if they have anything to add. I'm not mounting a public campaign, I just think we're missing some important perspectives. 

On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 3:15:10 AM UTC-4, Robert Grant wrote:
Good email. This one won't be that good.

Boiling my verbose email down to two sentences:

We seem to already have a private group of people who make decisions in secret and pronounce a verdict on issues, and who can to a large extent control the community. If this is the case, and they already have total control should they choose to exercise it, a Django ASBO won't give any extra power over - and thus protection against - griefers/bullies/whatever.

Just to hedge my bets, if the group does decide to create the ASBO, could it be called the Anti-Social Django Act?

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 7:33 AM, Benjamin Scherrey <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="65gAPJRd-W0J" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">prote...@...> wrote:
Hi Kevin,

   And thanx for responding to my question about the need for such a policy with Django. Last night, as I had not yet had a response from anyone about this question I searched the archives of both django groups looking for any events or circumstances in which the code of conduct was invoked as I had no personal recollection of any such thing. I found some innocuous reference in the django-users group (wrongly suggesting that this coming policy was going to increase female participation) and in django-developers, one actual circumstance where its use was threatened - not surprisingly as part of the one example you provided that actually has anything to do at all with the Django community. Sadly, it's invocation was precisely used in the manner that I had feared - to stifle debate and threaten a person who was making valid and reasonable arguments (no doubt in the middle of a flame war but he/she wasn't the flamer). When I saw the name of the person who invoked the code of conduct I was even more disappointed as it was someone that I otherwise have a profound respect for.

    Other than this I was not surprised to see zero evidence for the need for such a policy as there don't seem to be any threatening events of the like that your email raises. These problems may exist elsewhere but not amongst the general django community that I've ever seen. 

    Understand my background. I own a software development company that was a VERY early adopter of Django way before the 1.0 days. I expect I was certainly one of the first thousand developers to use Django in a real-life situation once it got outside of the newspaper where it was created. My company is one of the first to build commercial systems for clients on top of Django. My staff even has a few little commits into the django code base over the years, although minor, but we were proud nonetheless to be able to contribute in some small way. I've attended my share of PyCons (prior to the invention of DjangoCon which I hope to attend one day) and have always found the community very open and inclusive of all types. This is a Good Thing (TM). I've even sent 5 staff to the event, four of which happened to be women. My team now consists of 34+ people, all but two of which are in a technical capacity. WE are geeks who seek out other geeks who want to be appreciated solely based on merit. We happen to have about a 40% female colleague share and explicitly do NOT have a diversity policy (nor will we ever have an HR department but that's another story). I simply am strong at identifying and attracting people with strong potential and the market is so extremely competitive that one must leave no stone unturned in order to find the best. THAT is the one way that a more inclusive group will come into being and for the right reasons.

    So I have actually achieved what everyone is crying out for and can't seem to figure how to accomplish. It wasn't difficult. I'm here to tell you that diversity policies and codes of conduct, in my experience consulting to dozens of commercial, government, and educational organizations in my 30+ years of experience have never once helped achieve their stated goals and, many times, have hurt both the organization and it's intended beneficiaries. True to my experience, the one threatened invocation of the code of conduct for Django fits right in line with my experience of such policies, sadly. 

    Therefore, I hope everyone appreciates that I'm fully invested in Django and attracting the best & brightest into our community. I think you'll see Kevin, that I supported your first PR but have very grave concerns about the second for the reasons I've already gone into great detail about. I do believe completely that both were put forward with good intentions. I'm all for policies that put forward good examples of appreciated behavior and add to the general sense of inclusiveness which I think your first one does. It scares the hell out of me when people start enumerating banned conduct and speech - and I wish more people understood the issue as well as I about why. That's why I'm quite vocal about this.

    Thanx for your time and interest,

   -- Ben Scherrey

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Kevin Daum <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="65gAPJRd-W0J" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">kevin...@...> wrote:
Thanks Russ, I assumed as much, having read <a href="https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/changes/" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fwww.djangoproject.com%2Fconduct%2Fchanges%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGUpMnq1EWZniYQeAd8Hy-D69HQAg';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fwww.djangoproject.com%2Fconduct%2Fchanges%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGUpMnq1EWZniYQeAd8Hy-D69HQAg';return true;">https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/changes/. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps Daniele's keynote talk at Djangocon this year, combined with the already very good Django code of conduct, caused me to assume too much of this community's progression towards appreciating both the need of diversity in tech and the actual conditions required to bring that about. 

Benjamin, you asked if there is an actual problem that needs solving. Yes. Absolutely. It is a systemic one within the world of software development and I am excited to be a part of a particular software development community that is taking proactive steps towards the goal of a safe, supportive environment for everyone who is working towards that same goal. The quality of our software will reflect the quality of our community. Here is just a tiny sample of reading for any who are interested in learning why these kinds of policies are so important:

  1. See the recent case of Anita Sarkeesian, which is one sort of situation I have in mind when writing down a policy such as this:
    <a href="https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160/photo/1" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Ffemfreq%2Fstatus%2F504718160902492160%2Fphoto%2F1\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGzqcZLiPdzxG2lrGFJ4vl90NxMfA';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Ffemfreq%2Fstatus%2F504718160902492160%2Fphoto%2F1\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGzqcZLiPdzxG2lrGFJ4vl90NxMfA';return true;">https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160/photo/1
    <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/gaming-vlogger-anita-sarkeesian-is-forced-from-home-after-receiving-harrowing-death-threats/" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnews%2Fmorning-mix%2Fwp%2F2014%2F08%2F29%2Fgaming-vlogger-anita-sarkeesian-is-forced-from-home-after-receiving-harrowing-death-threats%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFCT4cENkBv_5gSXxyhDOlunnHoIQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnews%2Fmorning-mix%2Fwp%2F2014%2F08%2F29%2Fgaming-vlogger-anita-sarkeesian-is-forced-from-home-after-receiving-harrowing-death-threats%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFCT4cENkBv_5gSXxyhDOlunnHoIQ';return true;">http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/gaming-vlogger-anita-sarkeesian-is-forced-from-home-after-receiving-harrowing-death-threats/
  2. <a href="http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/abuse-as-ddos" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fmodelviewculture.com%2Fpieces%2Fabuse-as-ddos\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFRDcFR1lXg3mP26rTJ1PN3TzUswA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fmodelviewculture.com%2Fpieces%2Fabuse-as-ddos\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFRDcFR1lXg3mP26rTJ1PN3TzUswA';return true;">http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/abuse-as-ddos, including this bit: "Just like with computer security, you should have plans in place to identify and address attacks. At conferences, user groups, and other events, this can take the form of a code of conduct along with a policy for enforcement. In workplaces, this often takes the form of an employee handbook. These types of policies help mitigate attacks when they happen, so that decisions don’t have to be made on the fly when something goes wrong. These policies are far from perfect fixes for everything, but they’re better than doing nothing."
  3. <a href="http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-open-source-identity-crisis" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fmodelviewculture.com%2Fpieces%2Fthe-open-source-identity-crisis\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaRqtmQZQn-bOxqDck8XG2lOZi9Q';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fmodelviewculture.com%2Fpieces%2Fthe-open-source-identity-crisis\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaRqtmQZQn-bOxqDck8XG2lOZi9Q';return true;">http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-open-source-identity-crisis. By the way, I'm proud that the one time this author links to something django-related, it's <a href="http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Django_primary-replica_terminology_patch_dispute" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fgeekfeminism.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FDjango_primary-replica_terminology_patch_dispute\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHJgNKWjQ6iutDw1x0dyqe6gks3FA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fgeekfeminism.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FDjango_primary-replica_terminology_patch_dispute\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHJgNKWjQ6iutDw1x0dyqe6gks3FA';return true;">this situation in which the core devs wisely and quickly made the right choice.



On Monday, September 8, 2014 9:37:16 PM UTC-4, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
Hi Kevin,

Thanks for these suggestions.

By way of settings expectations - a patch of this nature has a little more procedural overhead than a normal patch, because it requires a change to our community policies. Regardless of the merit (or otherwise) of a specific proposal, a change to these policies needs to be ratified by the core team and the DSF membership before it goes into effect.

Discussions on the ticket itself from people outside those groups is definitely welcome - the broader opinion and attitudes of the community will be considered as part of the ratification process. But it's not something that a small group of people can quickly agree on and commit. 

Russ %-)


On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Kevin Daum <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have submitted two pull requests for the code of conduct:
  • <a href="https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/84" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdjangoproject.com%2Fpull%2F84\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGguBARfN2vzNDzASho12djmwNcZw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdjangoproject.com%2Fpull%2F84\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGguBARfN2vzNDzASho12djmwNcZw';return true;">#84, to let folks who belong to a wide variety of social identities know that yes, even they are welcome here, and
  • <a href="https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdjangoproject.com%2Fpull%2F86\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFi_PBjsSE2iYcnKG7karAmwq04nw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fdjango%2Fdjangoproject.com%2Fpull%2F86\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFi_PBjsSE2iYcnKG7karAmwq04nw';return true;">#86, to make explicit the currently implicit policy that someone's abusive behavior outside the django community may have an adverse effect on their ability to participate within the django community.
I welcome your feedback. 

Thanks,
Kevin Daum

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

Stephen Burrows
Benjamin,

I believe there have been serious issues with harassment of women specifically at previous DjangoCons (though there may not be mention of it on the mailing lists.) It has definitely been a major issue at other tech conferences and tech meetups. That was a major factor in the recent push in the tech world to have better anti-harassment / code of conduct policies. See also: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents (and the rest of the wiki, really).

Here is a short selection of other links that talk about this issue, with various relations to Django / DjangoCon specifically.


I could just keep going, but I don't want to overwhelm people (slash you) with too many links. If you want more, you can use google.

If you think a policy like this doesn't need to exist, you are IMO, frankly, very wrong. But if you think it just needs to be written differently, stop talking about it and show us what that would look like!

--Stephen

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Kevin Daum <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm going to attempt to reach out to some folks who I think might be more likely than us to benefit from a code of conduct and ask if they have anything to add. I'm not mounting a public campaign, I just think we're missing some important perspectives. 

On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 3:15:10 AM UTC-4, Robert Grant wrote:
Good email. This one won't be that good.

Boiling my verbose email down to two sentences:

We seem to already have a private group of people who make decisions in secret and pronounce a verdict on issues, and who can to a large extent control the community. If this is the case, and they already have total control should they choose to exercise it, a Django ASBO won't give any extra power over - and thus protection against - griefers/bullies/whatever.

Just to hedge my bets, if the group does decide to create the ASBO, could it be called the Anti-Social Django Act?

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 7:33 AM, Benjamin Scherrey <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Kevin,

   And thanx for responding to my question about the need for such a policy with Django. Last night, as I had not yet had a response from anyone about this question I searched the archives of both django groups looking for any events or circumstances in which the code of conduct was invoked as I had no personal recollection of any such thing. I found some innocuous reference in the django-users group (wrongly suggesting that this coming policy was going to increase female participation) and in django-developers, one actual circumstance where its use was threatened - not surprisingly as part of the one example you provided that actually has anything to do at all with the Django community. Sadly, it's invocation was precisely used in the manner that I had feared - to stifle debate and threaten a person who was making valid and reasonable arguments (no doubt in the middle of a flame war but he/she wasn't the flamer). When I saw the name of the person who invoked the code of conduct I was even more disappointed as it was someone that I otherwise have a profound respect for.

    Other than this I was not surprised to see zero evidence for the need for such a policy as there don't seem to be any threatening events of the like that your email raises. These problems may exist elsewhere but not amongst the general django community that I've ever seen. 

    Understand my background. I own a software development company that was a VERY early adopter of Django way before the 1.0 days. I expect I was certainly one of the first thousand developers to use Django in a real-life situation once it got outside of the newspaper where it was created. My company is one of the first to build commercial systems for clients on top of Django. My staff even has a few little commits into the django code base over the years, although minor, but we were proud nonetheless to be able to contribute in some small way. I've attended my share of PyCons (prior to the invention of DjangoCon which I hope to attend one day) and have always found the community very open and inclusive of all types. This is a Good Thing (TM). I've even sent 5 staff to the event, four of which happened to be women. My team now consists of 34+ people, all but two of which are in a technical capacity. WE are geeks who seek out other geeks who want to be appreciated solely based on merit. We happen to have about a 40% female colleague share and explicitly do NOT have a diversity policy (nor will we ever have an HR department but that's another story). I simply am strong at identifying and attracting people with strong potential and the market is so extremely competitive that one must leave no stone unturned in order to find the best. THAT is the one way that a more inclusive group will come into being and for the right reasons.

    So I have actually achieved what everyone is crying out for and can't seem to figure how to accomplish. It wasn't difficult. I'm here to tell you that diversity policies and codes of conduct, in my experience consulting to dozens of commercial, government, and educational organizations in my 30+ years of experience have never once helped achieve their stated goals and, many times, have hurt both the organization and it's intended beneficiaries. True to my experience, the one threatened invocation of the code of conduct for Django fits right in line with my experience of such policies, sadly. 

    Therefore, I hope everyone appreciates that I'm fully invested in Django and attracting the best & brightest into our community. I think you'll see Kevin, that I supported your first PR but have very grave concerns about the second for the reasons I've already gone into great detail about. I do believe completely that both were put forward with good intentions. I'm all for policies that put forward good examples of appreciated behavior and add to the general sense of inclusiveness which I think your first one does. It scares the hell out of me when people start enumerating banned conduct and speech - and I wish more people understood the issue as well as I about why. That's why I'm quite vocal about this.

    Thanx for your time and interest,

   -- Ben Scherrey

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Kevin Daum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks Russ, I assumed as much, having read https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/changes/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps Daniele's keynote talk at Djangocon this year, combined with the already very good Django code of conduct, caused me to assume too much of this community's progression towards appreciating both the need of diversity in tech and the actual conditions required to bring that about. 

Benjamin, you asked if there is an actual problem that needs solving. Yes. Absolutely. It is a systemic one within the world of software development and I am excited to be a part of a particular software development community that is taking proactive steps towards the goal of a safe, supportive environment for everyone who is working towards that same goal. The quality of our software will reflect the quality of our community. Here is just a tiny sample of reading for any who are interested in learning why these kinds of policies are so important:

  1. See the recent case of Anita Sarkeesian, which is one sort of situation I have in mind when writing down a policy such as this:
    https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160/photo/1
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/gaming-vlogger-anita-sarkeesian-is-forced-from-home-after-receiving-harrowing-death-threats/
  2. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/abuse-as-ddos, including this bit: "Just like with computer security, you should have plans in place to identify and address attacks. At conferences, user groups, and other events, this can take the form of a code of conduct along with a policy for enforcement. In workplaces, this often takes the form of an employee handbook. These types of policies help mitigate attacks when they happen, so that decisions don’t have to be made on the fly when something goes wrong. These policies are far from perfect fixes for everything, but they’re better than doing nothing."
  3. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-open-source-identity-crisis. By the way, I'm proud that the one time this author links to something django-related, it's this situation in which the core devs wisely and quickly made the right choice.



On Monday, September 8, 2014 9:37:16 PM UTC-4, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
Hi Kevin,

Thanks for these suggestions.

By way of settings expectations - a patch of this nature has a little more procedural overhead than a normal patch, because it requires a change to our community policies. Regardless of the merit (or otherwise) of a specific proposal, a change to these policies needs to be ratified by the core team and the DSF membership before it goes into effect.

Discussions on the ticket itself from people outside those groups is definitely welcome - the broader opinion and attitudes of the community will be considered as part of the ratification process. But it's not something that a small group of people can quickly agree on and commit. 

Russ %-)


On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Kevin Daum <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have submitted two pull requests for the code of conduct:
  • #84, to let folks who belong to a wide variety of social identities know that yes, even they are welcome here, and
  • #86, to make explicit the currently implicit policy that someone's abusive behavior outside the django community may have an adverse effect on their ability to participate within the django community.
I welcome your feedback. 

Thanks,
Kevin Daum

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