django/python meeting split?

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django/python meeting split?

Reinout van Rees
Hi,

Personally, I wonder if we should be a bit more vigilant regarding the
django/python split. We have django meetings (always in Amsterdam) and
python meetings (all over the place).

But the last django meeting was about 50% generic Python content, at
least it seemed that way to me.

If I brainstorm about it, these are my thoughts:

- Do we need the django/python split? Django *is* very popular, so it
has a separate market. But then we should safeguard the Django content a
bit more.

- Does this mean no django content at the python meetings?

- Hey, I haven't heard a plone talk in 2 years time.

- When was the last Arnhem/Veenendaal/Rotterdam/The Hague meeting?



Reinout

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Re: django/python meeting split?

Martijn Faassen-2
Hi there,

Reminds me of Zope way back when. Zope ended up being seen a a
community isolated from the rest of the Python community.

On the other hand, I'm not that interested in PUN meetings where, each
time, half the time goes to something Django-specific.

Regards,

Martijn
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Re: django/python meeting split?

Maarten Kling
In reply to this post by Reinout van Rees
Hi Reinout and others,

10-11-12 October the Plone Conference 2012 will be in Arnhem. So if you
want to see a Plone talk join us :)
Talk submission will open very soon, it would be great if there where
some python or related python project submissions.
At this point we got the training submission open, if someone is
interested in giving a (international) Python training, please submit
you training.

Regards,
Maarten

www.ploneconf.org
www.ploneconf.org/news/training-submission-now-open



On 4/21/12 10:20 PM, Reinout van Rees wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Personally, I wonder if we should be a bit more vigilant regarding the
> django/python split. We have django meetings (always in Amsterdam) and
> python meetings (all over the place).
>
> But the last django meeting was about 50% generic Python content, at
> least it seemed that way to me.
>
> If I brainstorm about it, these are my thoughts:
>
> - Do we need the django/python split? Django *is* very popular, so it
> has a separate market. But then we should safeguard the Django content
> a bit more.
>
> - Does this mean no django content at the python meetings?
>
> - Hey, I haven't heard a plone talk in 2 years time.
>
> - When was the last Arnhem/Veenendaal/Rotterdam/The Hague meeting?
>
>
>
> Reinout
>

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Re: django/python meeting split?

Remco Wendt-2
In reply to this post by Reinout van Rees
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 22:20, Reinout van Rees <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Personally, I wonder if we should be a bit more vigilant regarding the django/python split. We have django meetings (always in Amsterdam) and python meetings (all over the place).

It always good to evaluate choices from the past every now and then. So thanks for starting this. Personally I wouldn't mind in having more Python meetups where there is room for interesting Django talks, as there is room for interesting talks about other cool (web) frameworks. But then again there actually tend to be a slightly larger audience at the Django meetups, strangely enough. So I would be interested to find out what other people think about this.

Also we decided on this because we didn't want to bore the non-Django python crowd with a lot of nitty gritty details about the Django framework. Sure there is interesting stuff in Django for all Pythonauts. But that only goes so far. And like you mention yourself Django in itself has a large user base.
 
But the last django meeting was about 50% generic Python content, at least it seemed that way to me.

That sure has a reference to my presentation, since someone made that remark already during the questions :) 

My definition of a good presentation for a meetup is: it should be of interest to the majority of the audience. So sure, with my presentation about profiling I didn't show a line of code from the Django code base, but is the concept of code/memory profiling of interest to most Django developers? I think it is. I'm also going to give this presentation, in an improved form, at the PyGrunn conference, so there I'll talk to the general Python population ;)

Also, and unfortunately, we still don't have the luxury of choosing from a broad range of different presentations. I would love for more people to tell about what they are doing, and every meetup I make an effort in trying to get people enthousiastic about sharing their knowledge and insights with the rest of the community. But only a very small number of people actually decide to do a presentation in the end.
 
If I brainstorm about it, these are my thoughts:

- Do we need the django/python split? Django *is* very popular, so it has a separate market. But then we should safeguard the Django content a bit more.

Safeguarding content is a luxury for when there are enough presentations :) What do you think of my definition? 
 
- Does this mean no django content at the python meetings?

Personally I don't really see things this strict. 
 
- Hey, I haven't heard a plone talk in 2 years time.

- When was the last Arnhem/Veenendaal/Rotterdam/The Hague meeting?

The ABC treehouse is an easy deal for us. I've also not been very active in asking around and scouting for new meetup locations of late, so that is partially me to blame. If people would love to host a python meetup in a different city please let me know.
 
Cheers,
Remco
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Re: django/python meeting split?

Wichert Akkerman
On 04/27/2012 11:24 AM, Remco Wendt wrote:
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 22:20, Reinout van Rees <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Personally, I wonder if we should be a bit more vigilant regarding the django/python split. We have django meetings (always in Amsterdam) and python meetings (all over the place).

It always good to evaluate choices from the past every now and then. So thanks for starting this. Personally I wouldn't mind in having more Python meetups where there is room for interesting Django talks, as there is room for interesting talks about other cool (web) frameworks. But then again there actually tend to be a slightly larger audience at the Django meetups, strangely enough. So I would be interested to find out what other people think about this.

Persoonlijk heb ik weinig interesse in Django (meetings). Mogelijk is ook een factor dat Django bijeenkomsten op een handigere plek zijn voor mensen dan de laatste python-nl bijeenkomsten en daardoor een hogere opkomst hebben?

Also, and unfortunately, we still don't have the luxury of choosing from a broad range of different presentations. I would love for more people to tell about what they are doing, and every meetup I make an effort in trying to get people enthousiastic about sharing their knowledge and insights with the rest of the community. But only a very small number of people actually decide to do a presentation in the end.

Ik wil best een keer een praatje geven over wat we bij 2Style4You doen (zie websites als styletoyou.nl, woxingwoyi.payeasy.com.tw en kledingadvies.neck.nl). Afhankelijk van het publiek kan dat geheel niet-technische zijn, bijvoorbeeld over mode of affiliate netwerken, of juist diep technisch over het maken van C++/Python libraries, of meer puur python over hoe we Pyramid gebruiken, overpeinzingen over form libraries, etc.

Wichert.


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Re: django/python meeting split?

Martijn Faassen-2
In reply to this post by Remco Wendt-2
Hey,

One problem I have is that what I've been doing mostly in recent years
that's interesting to talk about concerns JavaScript. I guess that
could be more part of a Django meeting than a Python meeting almost.
:)

Just to muddy the waters some more!

Regards,

Martijn
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Re: django/python meeting split?

Dirkjan Ochtman
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:39, Martijn Faassen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> One problem I have is that what I've been doing mostly in recent years
> that's interesting to talk about concerns JavaScript. I guess that
> could be more part of a Django meeting than a Python meeting almost.
> :)

There are those of us who do Python-based web development without
Django... I stubbornly keep writing bare-WSGI apps, and perhaps there
are some Flask and/or Pyramid users around.

So perhaps the general sentiment is that Django venues are more
web-focused than other Python-related gatherings?

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: django/python meeting split?

Remco Wendt-2


On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:42, Dirkjan Ochtman <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:39, Martijn Faassen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> One problem I have is that what I've been doing mostly in recent years
> that's interesting to talk about concerns JavaScript. I guess that
> could be more part of a Django meeting than a Python meeting almost.
> :)

There are those of us who do Python-based web development without
Django... I stubbornly keep writing bare-WSGI apps, and perhaps there
are some Flask and/or Pyramid users around.

I would love to hear more about that! To be honest. 
 
So perhaps the general sentiment is that Django venues are more
web-focused than other Python-related gatherings?

That's a nice way of putting it :)

Remco
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Re: django/python meeting split?

Martijn Faassen-2
In reply to this post by Dirkjan Ochtman
Hey,

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:39, Martijn Faassen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> One problem I have is that what I've been doing mostly in recent years
>> that's interesting to talk about concerns JavaScript. I guess that
>> could be more part of a Django meeting than a Python meeting almost.
>> :)
>
> There are those of us who do Python-based web development without
> Django...

Yeah, like me, I've been using Zope in various incarnations for more
than a decade now, with a bit of WSGI stuff thrown in. :)

> I stubbornly keep writing bare-WSGI apps, and perhaps there
> are some Flask and/or Pyramid users around.
>
> So perhaps the general sentiment is that Django venues are more
> web-focused than other Python-related gatherings?

What could be done is designated some meetings python-web. If all the
content happens to be Django + a bit of Python, so be it, but if I
wanted to talk about Obviel I could do it too then (even though that's
still JavaScript, not Python..). But perhaps that wouldn't attract
enough of the Django crowd. It reminds me of us renaming the Zope
track at EuroPython to the 'web track'.

Regards,

Martijn
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Re: django/python meeting split?

Dirkjan Ochtman
In reply to this post by Remco Wendt-2
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:46, Remco Wendt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> There are those of us who do Python-based web development without
>> Django... I stubbornly keep writing bare-WSGI apps, and perhaps there
>> are some Flask and/or Pyramid users around.
>
> I would love to hear more about that! To be honest.

About writing bare-WSGI apps, or what other people use for webdev?

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 12:01, Martijn Faassen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What could be done is designated some meetings python-web. If all the
> content happens to be Django + a bit of Python, so be it, but if I
> wanted to talk about Obviel I could do it too then (even though that's
> still JavaScript, not Python..). But perhaps that wouldn't attract
> enough of the Django crowd. It reminds me of us renaming the Zope
> track at EuroPython to the 'web track'.

Sounds good to me. Like Wichert, I don't care much for Django, but I
generally try to keep up with web technology.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: django/python meeting split?

Boaz Leskes
For my part I  +1 Martjin's idea to include all web-related talks, regardless of the underlying platform. Even though I primarily use Django, I'm still very interested in hearing about any cool/useful/inspiring technologies. Next to technologies you can directly use with Django (like CoffeeScript : http://reinout.vanrees.org/weblog/2012/01/18/pun-lightning-talks.html ), I it is very interesting to see other approaches to the same problems.  Personally, I learn a lot from that and it helps me improve the way I use Django and sometimes give me ideas of how to extend django to do something it doesn't do out of the box.

I think this should be encouraged and welcomed. 

Cheers,
Boaz

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Dirkjan Ochtman <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:46, Remco Wendt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> There are those of us who do Python-based web development without
>> Django... I stubbornly keep writing bare-WSGI apps, and perhaps there
>> are some Flask and/or Pyramid users around.
>
> I would love to hear more about that! To be honest.

About writing bare-WSGI apps, or what other people use for webdev?

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 12:01, Martijn Faassen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What could be done is designated some meetings python-web. If all the
> content happens to be Django + a bit of Python, so be it, but if I
> wanted to talk about Obviel I could do it too then (even though that's
> still JavaScript, not Python..). But perhaps that wouldn't attract
> enough of the Django crowd. It reminds me of us renaming the Zope
> track at EuroPython to the 'web track'.

Sounds good to me. Like Wichert, I don't care much for Django, but I
generally try to keep up with web technology.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: django/python meeting split?

Reinout van Rees
In reply to this post by Remco Wendt-2
On 27-04-12 11:24, Remco Wendt wrote:
>     But the last django meeting was about 50% generic Python content, at
>     least it seemed that way to me.
>
>
> That sure has a reference to my presentation, since someone made that
> remark already during the questions :)

I loved the presentation, but just two extra Django-related slided would
have made it more specific (if only for PR reasons). Your talk *was*
very applicable to my day-to-day Django work :-)

> Safeguarding content is a luxury for when there are enough presentations

True.

> >   - When was the last Arnhem/Veenendaal/Rotterdam/__The Hague meeting?
>
>
> The ABC treehouse is an easy deal for us. I've also not been very active
> in asking around and scouting for new meetup locations of late, so that
> is partially me to blame. If people would love to host a python meetup
> in a different city please let me know.

Consider september taken by Utrecht (as I already suggested). I only
have to nail the specific date :-)



Reinout

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Re: django/python meeting split?

Reinout van Rees
In reply to this post by Dirkjan Ochtman
On 27-04-12 11:42, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> So perhaps the general sentiment is that Django venues are more
> web-focused than other Python-related gatherings?

By nature, django is all-web, of course, so by definition it wins.

But the python meetings have a healthy web content. Plone's layout
mechanism, webpy, stuff like that. I'd personally like a pyramid talk at
the september Python meeting (Wichert, how does Utrecht sound?)




Reinout

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Re: django/python meeting split?

Wichert Akkerman
On 2012-4-29 22:06, Reinout van Rees wrote:
> But the python meetings have a healthy web content. Plone's layout
> mechanism, webpy, stuff like that. I'd personally like a pyramid talk at
> the september Python meeting (Wichert, how does Utrecht sound?)

Utrecht is prima voor mij! Zolang het niet op 7 of 14 september is - die
data zijn al bezet.

Wichert.

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Re: django/python meeting split?

Marcel van den Elst-3
In reply to this post by Reinout van Rees
Hi,

 > I'd personally like a pyramid talk at
 > the september Python meeting (Wichert, how does Utrecht sound?)

We're currently moving away from Django + Tastypie to Pyramid +
MongoEngine + TastyMongo (which is our adaptation of Tastypie to Mongo
and Pyramid) so we should be up to date on the topic in september.

Rationale is that we used a minimal amount of Django (neither the admin
interface, nor templates) and most got in our way instead of helping us
out. We're not there yet, but so far we're loving the new experience!

Pyramid is lightweight, very cleverly designed, at least as proven as
Django, it has much nicer Request and Response objects and object level
permissions are a breeze. Of course YMMV if you need any of the Django
specific stuff.

Whether we end up using this stack in the end remains to be seen, but
either way we can shed some light on our endeavours in September if
anyone's interested.

Cheers!
Marcel van den Elst.


On 29-04-12 22:06, Reinout van Rees wrote:

> On 27-04-12 11:42, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
>> So perhaps the general sentiment is that Django venues are more
>> web-focused than other Python-related gatherings?
>
> By nature, django is all-web, of course, so by definition it wins.
>
>
>
>
>
> Reinout
>
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Re: django/python meeting split?

Reinout van Rees
In reply to this post by Wichert Akkerman
On 30-04-12 12:03, Wichert Akkerman wrote:
> Utrecht is prima voor mij! Zolang het niet op 7 of 14 september is - die
> data zijn al bezet.

21 september zou het dan worden. Remco, heb je al een datum voor de
django bijeenkomst rond oktober? Als het maar niet gelijk 28 sept ofzo
is :-)



Reinout

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Re: django/python meeting split?

Wichert Akkerman
On 05/04/2012 12:21 PM, Reinout van Rees wrote:
> On 30-04-12 12:03, Wichert Akkerman wrote:
>> Utrecht is prima voor mij! Zolang het niet op 7 of 14 september is - die
>> data zijn al bezet.
>
> 21 september zou het dan worden. Remco, heb je al een datum voor de
> django bijeenkomst rond oktober? Als het maar niet gelijk 28 sept ofzo
> is :-)

Is de datum ondertussen al vastgelegd?

Gr,
Wichert.

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Re: django/python meeting split?

Reinout van Rees
On 08-08-12 15:53, Wichert Akkerman wrote:
>
> Is de datum ondertussen al vastgelegd?

Had ik nog niet gedaan. Nou, dan is het bij deze de 21e, mits je dan nog
steeds over pyramid komt praten :-)


Reinout

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Re: django/python meeting split?

Reinout van Rees
In reply to this post by Wichert Akkerman
On 08-08-12 15:53, Wichert Akkerman wrote:

> On 05/04/2012 12:21 PM, Reinout van Rees wrote:
>> On 30-04-12 12:03, Wichert Akkerman wrote:
>>> Utrecht is prima voor mij! Zolang het niet op 7 of 14 september is - die
>>> data zijn al bezet.
>>
>> 21 september zou het dan worden. Remco, heb je al een datum voor de
>> django bijeenkomst rond oktober? Als het maar niet gelijk 28 sept ofzo
>> is :-)
>
> Is de datum ondertussen al vastgelegd?

Ehm, oepsie, 7 en 14 zijn vrijdagen. Het is (bijna altijd) op woensdag.
Woensdag 5 of woensdag 12 september kan wel?


Reinout

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Re: django/python meeting split?

Remco Wendt-2


2012/8/9 Reinout van Rees <[hidden email]>
On 08-08-12 15:53, Wichert Akkerman wrote:
On 05/04/2012 12:21 PM, Reinout van Rees wrote:
On 30-04-12 12:03, Wichert Akkerman wrote:
Utrecht is prima voor mij! Zolang het niet op 7 of 14 september is - die
data zijn al bezet.

21 september zou het dan worden. Remco, heb je al een datum voor de
django bijeenkomst rond oktober? Als het maar niet gelijk 28 sept ofzo
is :-)

Is de datum ondertussen al vastgelegd?

Ehm, oepsie, 7 en 14 zijn vrijdagen. Het is (bijna altijd) op woensdag. Woensdag 5 of woensdag 12 september kan wel?

Als je het organiseert heb je zelf het voorrecht om de datum te kiezen die je het beste schikt, denk ik zo :) Tof dat we het in Utrecht gaan doen!

Remco
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