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hide-show mode

Andreas Röhler-2
Hi Barry, hi all,

to make commands like `hs-hide-block' work, hs-minor-mode must be
switched on before.

Consider to add a hook enabling this by default - alongside with a
variable permitting to disable per defcustom.

Opinions?

Cheers,

Andreas

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Re: hide-show mode

Barry Warsaw
On Dec 08, 2011, at 07:57 AM, Andreas Röhler wrote:

>to make commands like `hs-hide-block' work, hs-minor-mode must be switched on
>before.
>
>Consider to add a hook enabling this by default - alongside with a variable
>permitting to disable per defcustom.

Perhaps just document that people need to enable this before it will work?

-Barry

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Re: hide-show mode

Andreas Röhler-2
Am 08.12.2011 13:55, schrieb Barry Warsaw:

> On Dec 08, 2011, at 07:57 AM, Andreas Röhler wrote:
>
>> to make commands like `hs-hide-block' work, hs-minor-mode must be switched on
>> before.
>>
>> Consider to add a hook enabling this by default - alongside with a variable
>> permitting to disable per defcustom.
>
> Perhaps just document that people need to enable this before it will work?
>
> -Barry

Introduced two variables

  `py-outline-minor-mode-p'
  `py-hide-show-minor-mode-p'

which are nil by default, so user shouldn't notice it
without deliberate setting.

If t, hooks will be loaded and switch in on.

BTW enabled outline-minor-mode, which couldn't work due to missing regexp.

Hope it's okay for you,
if not, we may revert it,

Cheers,

Andreas


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Re: hide-show mode

François Pinard
Andreas Röhler <[hidden email]> writes:

> Introduced two variables

>  `py-outline-minor-mode-p'
>  `py-hide-show-minor-mode-p'

> which are nil by default, so user shouldn't notice it
> without deliberate setting.

What is best for the average user?  Not noticing the capabilities, or
enjoying them?  The default should be set according to what is best for
the average user.

So I take that you consider the average user should rather not be aware
of these capabilities.

> Hope it's okay for you

Did you update README?  That file should speak about capabilities and
elementary configuration.  It should be updated synchronously while
capabilities are added or changed.

I understand it cannot be written all at once.  So, let's have it
written progressively.  I see this as the most fruitful way to
eventually get a useful README.  Currently, the documentation of
python-mode is severely lagging, really, so aggressive habits should be
set to repair that.

François

P.S. Sending users for fishing in the Emacs Lisp sources is not an
alternative for some documentation.  Python users are not Emacs Lisp
people, and we should not push them into becoming Emacs Lisp people.
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Re: hide-show mode

Andreas Röhler-2
Am 29.01.2012 03:28, schrieb François Pinard:

> Andreas Röhler<[hidden email]>  writes:
>
>> Introduced two variables
>
>>   `py-outline-minor-mode-p'
>>   `py-hide-show-minor-mode-p'
>
>> which are nil by default, so user shouldn't notice it
>> without deliberate setting.
>
> What is best for the average user?  Not noticing the capabilities, or
> enjoying them?  The default should be set according to what is best for
> the average user.
>
> So I take that you consider the average user should rather not be aware
> of these capabilities.

Oh, oh, so what kind of punishment you have prepared? :)

outline and hide-show mode are common Emacs features and will work with
python-mode out-of-the-box.

The question here is, if it should be switched on by default.
Read "notice" here as "being activated, thus get noticed"

Well, for novices, if these features are on, using some key per chance
without knowing what happens, that may turn nasty.

Therefor it's not delivered switched-on by default, that has being the
reflection.


>
>> Hope it's okay for you
>
> Did you update README?  That file should speak about capabilities and
> elementary configuration.  It should be updated synchronously while
> capabilities are added or changed.
>
> I understand it cannot be written all at once.  So, let's have it
> written progressively.  I see this as the most fruitful way to
> eventually get a useful README.  Currently, the documentation of
> python-mode is severely lagging, really, so aggressive habits should be
> set to repair that.
>
> François
>
> P.S. Sending users for fishing in the Emacs Lisp sources is not an
> alternative for some documentation.  Python users are not Emacs Lisp
> people, and we should not push them into becoming Emacs Lisp people.

Agreed. Will do what I can, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
Donnerstag... - the day of donar :)

Cheers,

Andreas





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Re: hide-show mode

François Pinard
Andreas Röhler <[hidden email]> writes:

> Oh, oh, so what kind of punishment you have prepared? :)

Me preparing punishment?  Not my kind :-).  My poor knowledge of English
makes me miss the meaning of the above sentence, but as it is ended with
a smiley, I presume it is a friendly tease!

> outline and hide-show mode are common Emacs features and will work
> with python-mode out-of-the-box.

They will surely not, if users have to explicitly turn them on.  You
probably meant: these minor modes would work, if turned on.

> The question here is, if it should be switched on by default.  Read
> "notice" here as "being activated, thus get noticed" Well, for
> novices, if these features are on, using some key per chance without
> knowing what happens, that may turn nasty.  Therefor it's not
> delivered switched-on by default, that has being the reflection.

OK.  If this is really the reason, it is a good reason.  As I wrote in
some earlier message, python-mode has not only the right to, but the
duty of an "opinion" about what is best for average Python users, and
should deliver itself defaulted according to this opinion.

>> Did you update README?  That file should speak about capabilities and
>> elementary configuration.

> Agreed. Will do what I can, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
> Donnerstag... - the day of donar :)

The importance of giving some usable documentation for python-mode
should not be underestimated.  I see it as a top priority in the case
here, because it is severely lagging.  And when I say "lagging", this is
a polite euphemism, "lacking" would me a more appropriate description.

That importance goes above that of all the Blueprints altogether, you
know :-).  Oh, no doubt it is a good thing to have self-aimed internal
documentation meant for planning, but if we take even a moderate
distance with the python-mode project and look at its current state, the
priority is clearly user documentation, not maintainer documentation.

README and INSTALL are very sub-minimal currently.  Only once
python-mode has a least minimal documentation, resume in parallel user
and maintainer documentation, and try to never lose sight again of the
users in the process.  Make it a principle: "Users first!" :-)

François

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Re: hide-show mode

Andreas Röhler-2
  Make it a principle: "Users first!" :-)
>
> François
>
>

just my opinion. So let's proceed.
BTW in doc there is a commands list.
Might it be of some use already?

Cheers,

Andreas
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Re: hide-show mode

François Pinard
Andreas Röhler <[hidden email]> writes:

> Make it a principle: "Users first!" :-) just my opinion. So let's
> proceed.

Of course!

> BTW in doc there is a commands list.  Might it be of some use already?

As doc/ stands, it is not much different from the Emacs Lisp sources
from which we would have subtracted Emacs Lisp.  It's much better than
not having sources at all, but it's not essentially better than the
sources themselves, so it does not add value to the distribution.

Unless I miss something, doc/ could almost go away.  I use `C-h m' or
`C-h b' in activated Python mode to get the key bindings, you likely do
it this way also.  So one sentence in README telling how to do `C-h m'
or `C-h b' could likely replace the interesting part of doc/, and maybe
more useful too.  That's not good documentation yet, but that's a start.

I doubt average Python users, not already familiar with Emacs Lisp,
could manage their way into doc/, but I may well be wrong on that!

François
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