mac python graphics

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mac python graphics

Andrew Harrington
I just got my first Mac.  I know issues with Mac graphics have been discussed before, but I'm not sure what is relevant with OSX Lion.

With the active state Tcl and the standard python.org python and idle appears fine.  
Still if I try running a Zelle graphic program inside or outside idle I get a freeze.

The massive installation through MacPorts, that uses X11 for graphics makes my Zelle graphics library Tk based programs  work fine, but the X11 version of Idle has many of the common keyboard shortcuts not working, and is (intensionally) not the standard Apple menu setup.

What am I missing?

Thanks,
--
Dr. Andrew N. Harrington
  Computer Science Department 
  Loyola University Chicago
Lakeshore office in the Math Department: 205 Loyola Hall
http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh
Phone: 773-915-7999
Fax:    312-915-7998
[hidden email]



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Re: mac python graphics

davelist

On Dec 7, 2011, at 12:45 PM, Andrew Harrington wrote:

> I just got my first Mac.  I know issues with Mac graphics have been discussed before, but I'm not sure what is relevant with OSX Lion.
>
> With the active state Tcl and the standard python.org python and idle appears fine.  
> Still if I try running a Zelle graphic program inside or outside idle I get a freeze.
>
> The massive installation through MacPorts, that uses X11 for graphics makes my Zelle graphics library Tk based programs  work fine, but the X11 version of Idle has many of the common keyboard shortcuts not working, and is (intensionally) not the standard Apple menu setup.
>
> What am I missing?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Dr. Andrew N. Harrington
>   Computer Science Department
>   Loyola University Chicago
> Lakeshore office in the Math Department: 205 Loyola Hall
> http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh
> Phone: 773-915-7999
> Fax:    312-915-7998
> [hidden email]

Are you closing the GraphWin window before exiting your program?

from graphics import *
win = GraphWin()

# do other stuff

win.close() # this is the important line (without it, I think it does freeze)

I keep forgetting to ask John about this to see if there's something we could do to modify graphics.py so this isn't necessary.

I don't think I've done anything else to the standard python.org (i.e., I installed Python 3.2.2 on Lion, but didn't download anything extra such as Tcl). You do need a newer Tcl than comes with Snow Leopard (Idle tells you this in the shell window when you open it), but I think it works fine with Leopard as long as you close the window.

HTH,
Dave

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Re: mac python graphics

John Zelle
In reply to this post by Andrew Harrington
Andrew,

We have numerous students and faculty here who are successfully using graphics.py with OSX Lion. The main problem for them was getting the ActiveState Tcl/Tk fix, but it sounds like you have already done that. If IDLE is running, there is no reason that the graphics package should give you difficulties.

I have two quick suggestions. First make sure you have the latest version of the graphics library available from my python page: http://mcsp.wartburg.edu/zelle/python. You probably do have it, as it has not been updated in quite a while. The important thing is that you need the unthreaded iteration of the library.

Second, make sure that every graphics program shuts down properly by executing window.close(). If your processes are hanging up on program termination, this could be the issue. It is not sufficient to simply have the Python program quit.

If neither of these addresses your issue, then I would appreciate it if you would send me a slightly more detailed report letting me know exactly what version of python and Tcl/Tk you are running and providing a simple example program that causes freeze up along with a description of exactly how it locks up.

Cheers,

--John

John Zelle, PhD
Professor of Computer Science
Wartburg College


From: edu-sig-bounces+john.zelle=[hidden email] [edu-sig-bounces+john.zelle=[hidden email]] on behalf of Andrew Harrington [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:45 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Edu-sig] mac python graphics

I just got my first Mac.  I know issues with Mac graphics have been discussed before, but I'm not sure what is relevant with OSX Lion.

With the active state Tcl and the standard python.org python and idle appears fine.  
Still if I try running a Zelle graphic program inside or outside idle I get a freeze.

The massive installation through MacPorts, that uses X11 for graphics makes my Zelle graphics library Tk based programs  work fine, but the X11 version of Idle has many of the common keyboard shortcuts not working, and is (intensionally) not the standard Apple menu setup.

What am I missing?

Thanks,
--
Dr. Andrew N. Harrington
  Computer Science Department 
  Loyola University Chicago
Lakeshore office in the Math Department: 205 Loyola Hall
http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh
Phone: 773-915-7999
Fax:    312-915-7998
[hidden email]



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Re: mac python graphics

Jason R Briggs
In reply to this post by Andrew Harrington
Argh. iPhone big finger button clumsiness. Don't know if my reply sent
or not. So trying again...

Try running idle in no sub process mode. Add -n to the cmd line args.

On 12/7/11, Andrew Harrington <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just got my first Mac.  I know issues with Mac graphics have been
> discussed before, but I'm not sure what is relevant with OSX Lion.
>
> With the active state Tcl and the standard python.org python and idle
> appears fine.
> Still if I try running a Zelle graphic program inside or outside idle I get
> a freeze.
>
> The massive installation through MacPorts, that uses X11 for graphics makes
> my Zelle graphics library Tk based programs  work fine, but the X11 version
> of Idle has many of the common keyboard shortcuts not working, and is
> (intensionally) not the standard Apple menu setup.
>
> What am I missing?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Dr. Andrew N. Harrington
>   Computer Science Department
>   Loyola University Chicago
> Lakeshore office in the Math Department: 205 Loyola Hall
> http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh
> Phone: 773-915-7999
> Fax:    312-915-7998
> [hidden email]
>
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Re: mac python graphics

Andrew Harrington
In reply to this post by John Zelle
Thanks, Juhn.  I had somehow missed the latest version.
What complications does the single threading bring?

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:19 PM, John Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
Andrew,

We have numerous students and faculty here who are successfully using graphics.py with OSX Lion. The main problem for them was getting the ActiveState Tcl/Tk fix, but it sounds like you have already done that. If IDLE is running, there is no reason that the graphics package should give you difficulties.

I have two quick suggestions. First make sure you have the latest version of the graphics library available from my python page: http://mcsp.wartburg.edu/zelle/python. You probably do have it, as it has not been updated in quite a while. The important thing is that you need the unthreaded iteration of the library.

Second, make sure that every graphics program shuts down properly by executing window.close(). If your processes are hanging up on program termination, this could be the issue. It is not sufficient to simply have the Python program quit.

If neither of these addresses your issue, then I would appreciate it if you would send me a slightly more detailed report letting me know exactly what version of python and Tcl/Tk you are running and providing a simple example program that causes freeze up along with a description of exactly how it locks up.

Cheers,

--John

John Zelle, PhD
Professor of Computer Science
Wartburg College


From: edu-sig-bounces+john.zelle=[hidden email] [edu-sig-bounces+john.zelle=[hidden email]] on behalf of Andrew Harrington [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:45 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Edu-sig] mac python graphics

I just got my first Mac.  I know issues with Mac graphics have been discussed before, but I'm not sure what is relevant with OSX Lion.

With the active state Tcl and the standard python.org python and idle appears fine.  
Still if I try running a Zelle graphic program inside or outside idle I get a freeze.

The massive installation through MacPorts, that uses X11 for graphics makes my Zelle graphics library Tk based programs  work fine, but the X11 version of Idle has many of the common keyboard shortcuts not working, and is (intensionally) not the standard Apple menu setup.

What am I missing?

Thanks,
--
Dr. Andrew N. Harrington
  Computer Science Department 
  Loyola University Chicago
Lakeshore office in the Math Department: 205 Loyola Hall
http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh
Phone: <a href="tel:773-915-7999" value="+17739157999" target="_blank">773-915-7999
Fax:    <a href="tel:312-915-7998" value="+13129157998" target="_blank">312-915-7998
[hidden email]





--
Dr. Andrew N. Harrington
  Computer Science Department 
  Loyola University Chicago
Lakeshore office in the Math Department: 205 Loyola Hall
http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh
Phone: 773-915-7999
Fax:    312-915-7998
[hidden email]



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Re: mac python graphics

John Zelle
Andrew,

The only real disadvantage of the non-threaded (current) version is that it does not play as well with the IDLE shell when demonstrating graphics interactively. But there are numerous advantages of the non-threaded version including that it works on OSX :-). I also like that I can have my students use Tkinter dialogs for opening files or getting simple inputs in graphics programs.

As far as documenting the complete GraphWin API, I've always been a bit lazy about moving things into the official API, just because I want to keep the API really small so that it doesn't overwhelm first-time users of graphics. There have always been a few undocumented "goodies" lurking in the module. When I decide that I _have_ to have them for certain class projects, then they make their way into the official API. I'm very conservative, because I don't want to remove things (for backward compatibility), and I consider the API now to be at the limit of what I can expect my CS1 students to reasonably master.

John Zelle, PhD
Professor of Computer Science
Wartburg College


From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Andrew Harrington [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 2:27 PM
To: John Zelle
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] mac python graphics

Thanks, Juhn.  I had somehow missed the latest version.
What complications does the single threading bring?

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:19 PM, John Zelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
Andrew,

We have numerous students and faculty here who are successfully using graphics.py with OSX Lion. The main problem for them was getting the ActiveState Tcl/Tk fix, but it sounds like you have already done that. If IDLE is running, there is no reason that the graphics package should give you difficulties.

I have two quick suggestions. First make sure you have the latest version of the graphics library available from my python page: http://mcsp.wartburg.edu/zelle/python. You probably do have it, as it has not been updated in quite a while. The important thing is that you need the unthreaded iteration of the library.

Second, make sure that every graphics program shuts down properly by executing window.close(). If your processes are hanging up on program termination, this could be the issue. It is not sufficient to simply have the Python program quit.

If neither of these addresses your issue, then I would appreciate it if you would send me a slightly more detailed report letting me know exactly what version of python and Tcl/Tk you are running and providing a simple example program that causes freeze up along with a description of exactly how it locks up.

Cheers,

--John

John Zelle, PhD
Professor of Computer Science
Wartburg College


From: edu-sig-bounces+john.zelle=[hidden email] [edu-sig-bounces+john.zelle=[hidden email]] on behalf of Andrew Harrington [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:45 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Edu-sig] mac python graphics

I just got my first Mac.  I know issues with Mac graphics have been discussed before, but I'm not sure what is relevant with OSX Lion.

With the active state Tcl and the standard python.org python and idle appears fine.  
Still if I try running a Zelle graphic program inside or outside idle I get a freeze.

The massive installation through MacPorts, that uses X11 for graphics makes my Zelle graphics library Tk based programs  work fine, but the X11 version of Idle has many of the common keyboard shortcuts not working, and is (intensionally) not the standard Apple menu setup.

What am I missing?

Thanks,
--
Dr. Andrew N. Harrington
  Computer Science Department 
  Loyola University Chicago
Lakeshore office in the Math Department: 205 Loyola Hall
http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh
Phone: <a href="tel:773-915-7999" value="&#43;17739157999" target="_blank">773-915-7999
Fax:    <a href="tel:312-915-7998" value="&#43;13129157998" target="_blank">312-915-7998
[hidden email]





--
Dr. Andrew N. Harrington
  Computer Science Department 
  Loyola University Chicago
Lakeshore office in the Math Department: 205 Loyola Hall
http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh
Phone: 773-915-7999
Fax:    312-915-7998
[hidden email]



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Re: mac python graphics

Kirby Urner-6
Somewhat tangentially bouncing around in this
vicinity, I offer these remarks re our situation at
work, where we want students connecting over
the wire to have good first experience using Python.
Retention is an issue.

The school's guiding philosophy requires providing
real hands-on programming experiences and real
interactivity with a full Python console, which until
recently has meant booting a remote desktop into
a server, running a session of Eclipse on a Windows
server in Illinois (front end client could be anything).

Here's a picture of the rig:
http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2011/06/back-office.html

Part of what keeps us in Eclipse is Tkinter. Our
students can do widgets programming.  We do
not have the Zelle package installed, but would
like to add it.  We already work with Wolfram and
have new kind of science exhibits working in the
wings (I've posted about that here already), but
so far only in ASCII (console i/o).

Getting Game of Life type CA stuff running with
graphics.py has already been done right here
in this very archive, in earlier versions of Python.

Anyway, a lot of students feel overwhelmed by
Eclipse and have a hard time distinguishing
between Python-the-language and the surrounding
IDE.  Many are brand new to programming, having
heard Python is a friendlier-than-most language,
winning the "best language ever" award a 3rd
time in a row, didn't I just read?

http://www.linuxjournal.com/slideshow/readers-choice-2011?page=27

However just recently, management has decided to
swap out Eclipse in the first unit and go with a Javascript
and Java enabled front end in a browser, already used to
teach Perl.  We can get away with this in the first unit only
because Tk / Widget programming doesn't happen until
the second unit.  We'll ease them over to Eclipse having
won their loyalty on the basis of Python (plus Coderunner,
the name for the teaching tool).  In the new configuration,
no need for remote desktop, a less shaky connection.
So even if you loved Eclipse, your situation may improve.

The ability to learn widget programming interactively,
writing your own programs, without having to install
anything locally, not even Python itself, is a marketable
feature.  Then we have highly trained mentors to back
it up, so there's no sense of "just a machine" on the
back end.  Works well so far (a relatively new gig for
me, but this team has been at it for quite awhile).

Kirby
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