positive spirit of the group [was moving forward]

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positive spirit of the group [was moving forward]

Marilyn Davis
------- On Monday, May 1, 2006 [hidden email] wrote:

> On 4/27/06, Aahz  wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
>> > At 05:02 PM 4/27/2006, Aahz wrote:
>> >>
>> >> My bias is toward not changing things.
>> >
>> > My bias is towards finding changes which represents benefit and moving
>> > forward in that direction.
>>
>> You snipped enough context to radically change the meaning of what I
>> said.  I see no point in responding further.
>
> This beating up on Aahz is not in line with the positive spirit of our
> group.  I normally wouldn't reply to such political things, but I'd
> just like to stick my neck out and say "thanks" to Aahz for all that
> he's done.  It's not like we're paying the guy!

Abolutely!  Thank you Aahz.  And thank you JJ for all you do.

But, there are several things here that I don't understand.  Why is it "sticking your neck out" to say "thank you"?  It's very important to say thank you and 'good work' to each other.  That's the payment volunteers get.

JJ, for example, there was this:

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

[some deleted]

>> > I'm not going to force you to learn HTML ;)
>> >
>> > However, a Web site is better than occassional email.  If we need to
>> > use a wiki, or if I need to write a script, that's fine, but I think a
>> > Web page is the way to go.
>> >
>> > That's just my $0.02.
>>
>> Since this is BayPiggies, I assume you're quite happy to write Python
>> ;)  In that case, give us the content in Python:
>>
>> meeting = {
>>     "date": "2006/06/13",
>>     "speaker": "Foo Bar",
>>     # ...
>> }
>>
>> Then, writing a script will be trivial! :-D  Generating the iCal feed
>> will also be easy!
>
> I'm not one to trust with typing tasks.  But I made this little script
> to parse Dennis' format into a python dictionary.  From there, your script
> should be even easier, I hope.
>
> ---
>
> #!/usr/bin/env python
> '''bap.py parses an email message to gather meeting schedule

And what followed was a script to get the data into a python dictionary, for you, for the group.

No 'thank you' for doing what you asked.  No 'good work', no suggestions for improving the code, nothing.  Was it a faux pas to send code?

Back to you and Aahz chastizing Dennis:  I don't get what he did wrong.  Here is the whole message, no text cut, well-indented for easy skipping:

  > ----- On Thursday, April 27, 2006 [hidden email] wrote:
  >
  >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
  >>>
  >>> What is missing from the lists of tasks is "decision-making".  How has
  >>> that been happening so far?
  >>
  >> Decision?  What's that?  An appropriate description would be something
  >> along the lines of loosely organized chaos.
  >>
  >>> I also remember that the poll and survey are considered "non-binding".
  >>> What is binding?
  >>
  >> Getting enough people to agree.  My bias is toward not changing things.
  >>
  >>> I find it uncomfortable for a big volunteer group to be in a position
  >>> where they can't make a decision unless a specific 2 people are
  >>> involved, specially when both are too busy writing books and having
  >>> babies to participate.  Are we simply stuck?
  >>
  >> Not from my POV.  But I don't think that just because a few people are
  >> clamoring for change is a reason to let things move forward in a
  >> different direction.
  >>
  >> BTW, note that Danny is the primary contact for baypiggies.net and
  >> Deirdre still owns the domain.
  >>
  >>> If we find a way to unstick ourselves, I hope that we make some
  >>> schedule where we rotate the duties, that no one holds a position of
  >>> power and visibility for longer than a year or two.
  >>
  >> That's an idea, but it also implies a lot more organization than I think
  >> is likely to ever happen.
  >>
  >>> "Benevolent dictator" makes a lot of sense for a technical design or
  >>> a programming language, but not for a big volunteer group.  Volunteer
  >>> groups thrive on democracy.
  >>
  >> Not in my experience.  My experience is that volunteer groups thrive
  >> on -- guess what? -- volunteers.  And unless the volunteer base is large
  >> enough, consensus is usually more important than democracy.
  >> --
  >> Aahz ([hidden email])                    http://www.pythoncraft.com/
  >>
  >> "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
  >> _______________________________________________
  >> Baypiggies mailing list
  >> [hidden email]
  >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

What did Dennis cut from Aahz' email that changed the context?  I don't see any 'beating up' on Aahz.

There were 3 emails about the name-change that took my messages into left-field directions that had nothing to do with what I said or intended.  I let them drop because I don't know what to say when someone asks me if I've stopped beating my wife.  At least Dennis has a wife to not beat. :^)

So there does seem to be some issue around here about getting along, being generous with each.

Why is this?

Marilyn

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Re: positive spirit of the group [was moving forward]

Shannon -jj Behrens
On 5/2/06, Marilyn Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ------- On Monday, May 1, 2006 [hidden email] wrote:
>
> > On 4/27/06, Aahz  wrote:
> >> On Thu, Apr 27, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> >> > At 05:02 PM 4/27/2006, Aahz wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> My bias is toward not changing things.
> >> >
> >> > My bias is towards finding changes which represents benefit and moving
> >> > forward in that direction.
> >>
> >> You snipped enough context to radically change the meaning of what I
> >> said.  I see no point in responding further.
> >
> > This beating up on Aahz is not in line with the positive spirit of our
> > group.  I normally wouldn't reply to such political things, but I'd
> > just like to stick my neck out and say "thanks" to Aahz for all that
> > he's done.  It's not like we're paying the guy!
>
> Abolutely!  Thank you Aahz.  And thank you JJ for all you do.
>
> But, there are several things here that I don't understand.  Why is it "sticking your neck out" to say "thank you"?  It's very important to say thank you and 'good work' to each other.  That's the payment volunteers get.

Agreed.  I said I was "sticking my neck out" because it seems like
scape-goating Aahz has become popular in this group, and I don't like
that approach of improving a group.

(As an American, I enjoy the ability to talk smack about our country's
President, whoever it is, but I don't like the idea of beating up on
an unpaid volunteer ;)

> JJ, for example, there was this:
>
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> [some deleted]
>
> >> > I'm not going to force you to learn HTML ;)
> >> >
> >> > However, a Web site is better than occassional email.  If we need to
> >> > use a wiki, or if I need to write a script, that's fine, but I think a
> >> > Web page is the way to go.
> >> >
> >> > That's just my $0.02.
> >>
> >> Since this is BayPiggies, I assume you're quite happy to write Python
> >> ;)  In that case, give us the content in Python:
> >>
> >> meeting = {
> >>     "date": "2006/06/13",
> >>     "speaker": "Foo Bar",
> >>     # ...
> >> }
> >>
> >> Then, writing a script will be trivial! :-D  Generating the iCal feed
> >> will also be easy!
> >
> > I'm not one to trust with typing tasks.  But I made this little script
> > to parse Dennis' format into a python dictionary.  From there, your script
> > should be even easier, I hope.
> >
> > ---
> >
> > #!/usr/bin/env python
> > '''bap.py parses an email message to gather meeting schedule
>
> And what followed was a script to get the data into a python dictionary, for you, for the group.
>
> No 'thank you' for doing what you asked.  No 'good work', no suggestions for improving the code, nothing.  Was it a faux pas to send code?

Thank you :)  My apologies that you felt slighted.

I didn't respond because I'm not in charge of the Web site, so it
wasn't my place to do anything with the code.

> Back to you and Aahz chastizing Dennis:  I don't get what he did wrong.  Here is the whole message, no text cut, well-indented for easy skipping:
>
>   > ----- On Thursday, April 27, 2006 [hidden email] wrote:
>   >
>   >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
>   >>>
>   >>> What is missing from the lists of tasks is "decision-making".  How has
>   >>> that been happening so far?
>   >>
>   >> Decision?  What's that?  An appropriate description would be something
>   >> along the lines of loosely organized chaos.
>   >>
>   >>> I also remember that the poll and survey are considered "non-binding".
>   >>> What is binding?
>   >>
>   >> Getting enough people to agree.  My bias is toward not changing things.
>   >>
>   >>> I find it uncomfortable for a big volunteer group to be in a position
>   >>> where they can't make a decision unless a specific 2 people are
>   >>> involved, specially when both are too busy writing books and having
>   >>> babies to participate.  Are we simply stuck?
>   >>
>   >> Not from my POV.  But I don't think that just because a few people are
>   >> clamoring for change is a reason to let things move forward in a
>   >> different direction.
>   >>
>   >> BTW, note that Danny is the primary contact for baypiggies.net and
>   >> Deirdre still owns the domain.
>   >>
>   >>> If we find a way to unstick ourselves, I hope that we make some
>   >>> schedule where we rotate the duties, that no one holds a position of
>   >>> power and visibility for longer than a year or two.
>   >>
>   >> That's an idea, but it also implies a lot more organization than I think
>   >> is likely to ever happen.
>   >>
>   >>> "Benevolent dictator" makes a lot of sense for a technical design or
>   >>> a programming language, but not for a big volunteer group.  Volunteer
>   >>> groups thrive on democracy.
>   >>
>   >> Not in my experience.  My experience is that volunteer groups thrive
>   >> on -- guess what? -- volunteers.  And unless the volunteer base is large
>   >> enough, consensus is usually more important than democracy.
>   >> --
>   >> Aahz ([hidden email])                    http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>   >>
>   >> "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
>   >> _______________________________________________
>   >> Baypiggies mailing list
>   >> [hidden email]
>   >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
> What did Dennis cut from Aahz' email that changed the context?  I don't see any 'beating up' on Aahz.

No insult to Dennis, who I think is a tremendously intelligent guy,
but Dennis started the email with:

Aahz> My bias is toward not changing things.
Dennis> My bias is towards finding changes which represents benefit and moving
forward in that direction.

The quote "My bias is toward not changing things" was indeed stripped
of its context and put into a new thread.  That seems like a Usenet
trick to me, but then of course, I'm still young enough to never have
used Usenet ;)

> There were 3 emails about the name-change that took my messages into left-field directions that had nothing to do with what I said or intended.  I let them drop because I don't know what to say when someone asks me if I've stopped beating my wife.  At least Dennis has a wife to not beat. :^)

The correct answer is "Mu", although personally I beat my wife on
every day that doesn't end in Y ;)

> So there does seem to be some issue around here about getting along, being generous with each.
>
> Why is this?

I don't know, but that's exactly what I'm unhappy with.  I'd like to
see more positive interactions instead of bickering.  Hence, I'd
positively like to thank you for the opportunity to articulate my
point ;)

Best Regards,
-jj
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Re: positive spirit of the group [was moving forward]

Dennis Reinhardt
In reply to this post by Marilyn Davis
At 02:49 PM 5/2/2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>The quote "My bias is toward not changing things" was indeed stripped
>of its context and put into a new thread.  That seems like a Usenet
>trick to me, ...

I was attempting to summarize:

         If you are sending a reply to a message or a
         posting be sure you summarize the original at
         the top of the message, or include just enough
         text of the original to give a context.

as per RFC 1855
(http://www.cybernothing.org/cno/docs/rfc1855.html#3).  Note the RFC uses
the qualifier "just enough", strongly suggesting that superfluous material
be trimmed.  I don't understand what necessary context was materially
altered by my trimming.  Maybe I trimmed too much but I don't see where.

I had no transformational intent.  My intent was to respect people's time
and follow Netiquette Guidelines, not Usenet trickery.  We all saw the
original the first time around.

The change in thread subject was strongly indicated, imo.  Stephen had
objected that his "meeting" thread had been hijacked.  Indeed, the subject
line of the "meeting" thread referenced a meeting which was cancelled.  I
did show the connection to the old subject line by putting [was ...] in the
new thread title.  My intent was to match subject and content, not to trick
anyone.



------------------------------------
| Dennis    | [hidden email]     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------

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Re: positive spirit of the group [was moving forward]

Marilyn Davis
In reply to this post by Marilyn Davis

Thank you JJ,  What a nice email.

I hope I'm doing the right thing in trimming out the past.

>

> > So there does seem to be some issue around here about getting along, being generous with each other.
> >
> > Why is this?
>
> I don't know, but that's exactly what I'm unhappy with.  I'd like to
> see more positive interactions instead of bickering.  Hence, I'd
> positively like to thank you for the opportunity to articulate my
> point ;)

If we were face to face, I'd say as gently as possible, "It's the name."

Words, particularly the names we call ourselves, work a powerful
influence in the realm of unconscious persuasion.  The group's name
works us into further lack of consciousness.

Python people, if you get it, you might want to be sure to vote, or
change your vote:

http://jacq.istos.com.au/python/


If you don't think it's important to you, personally, to choose a
better self-image, more important than material considerations,
please, let's talk some more.

Marilyn


>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
>

--






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