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python.el

Georg Brandl-3
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- From reading emacs-devel, it seems that the python.el has made
changes to the mode and explicitly taken them out of the copyright
assignment for the FSF, so Emacs upstream can't include them.

So now we are at three different python modes for Emacs... :|

Georg
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Re: python.el

Barry Warsaw
On Feb 03, 2011, at 09:23 PM, Georg Brandl wrote:

>- From reading emacs-devel, it seems that the python.el has made
>changes to the mode and explicitly taken them out of the copyright
>assignment for the FSF, so Emacs upstream can't include them.
>
>So now we are at three different python modes for Emacs... :|

Wonderful.

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/135075

We should reach out and see if there's another opportunity for them to adopt
python-mode.el.  Anybody want to take that on? :)

-Barry

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Re: python.el

Georg Brandl-3
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Am 03.02.2011 22:09, schrieb Barry Warsaw:

> On Feb 03, 2011, at 09:23 PM, Georg Brandl wrote:
>
>>- From reading emacs-devel, it seems that the python.el has made
>>changes to the mode and explicitly taken them out of the copyright
>>assignment for the FSF, so Emacs upstream can't include them.
>>
>>So now we are at three different python modes for Emacs... :|
>
> Wonderful.
>
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/135075
>
> We should reach out and see if there's another opportunity for them to adopt
> python-mode.el.  Anybody want to take that on? :)

Would we be able to find all the contributors and get them to sign papers
for the FSF?  Otherwise there's no need to even think about that step.

Georg
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Re: python.el

Skip Montanaro-3
In reply to this post by Georg Brandl-3

    Georg> - From reading emacs-devel, it seems that the python.el has made
    Georg> changes to the mode and explicitly taken them out of the
    Georg> copyright assignment for the FSF, so Emacs upstream can't include
    Georg> them.

    Georg> So now we are at three different python modes for Emacs... :|

I'm not sure I understand.  Someone forked python.el but won't allow the
changes to go back into the GNU version?  Wouldn't that violate the GPL or
LGPL.  Who did this?

Skip
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Re: python.el

Georg Brandl-3
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Am 03.02.2011 22:13, schrieb [hidden email]:

>
>     Georg> - From reading emacs-devel, it seems that the python.el has made
>     Georg> changes to the mode and explicitly taken them out of the
>     Georg> copyright assignment for the FSF, so Emacs upstream can't include
>     Georg> them.
>
>     Georg> So now we are at three different python modes for Emacs... :|
>
> I'm not sure I understand.  Someone forked python.el but won't allow the
> changes to go back into the GNU version?  Wouldn't that violate the GPL or
> LGPL.  Who did this?

Sorry, the word "author" is missing in my original message.  See the thread
linked by Barry, in particular the message by Stefan Monnier, for more details.

Georg
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Re: python.el

Skip Montanaro-3
In reply to this post by Barry Warsaw

    Barry> Wonderful.

    Barry> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/135075

Wasn't a lot of our heartburn alwhile ago precipitated by Dave Love?  He of
the massive-patch-which-must-not-be-divided?  In fact, isn't he the original
author of the the python.el which *is* delivered with GNU Emacs?  He must
have a big bee in his bonnet.

Skip

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Re: python.el

Georg Brandl-3
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Am 03.02.2011 22:19, schrieb [hidden email]:
>
>     Barry> Wonderful.
>
>     Barry> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/135075
>
> Wasn't a lot of our heartburn alwhile ago precipitated by Dave Love?  He of
> the massive-patch-which-must-not-be-divided?  In fact, isn't he the original
> author of the the python.el which *is* delivered with GNU Emacs?  He must
> have a big bee in his bonnet.

All true -- well, except for the last one, which I don't really know ;)

Georg
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Re: python.el

Aaron Culich-2
In reply to this post by Skip Montanaro-3


On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 1:13 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

   Georg> - From reading emacs-devel, it seems that the python.el has made
   Georg> changes to the mode and explicitly taken them out of the
   Georg> copyright assignment for the FSF, so Emacs upstream can't include
   Georg> them.

   Georg> So now we are at three different python modes for Emacs... :|

I'm not sure I understand.  Someone forked python.el but won't allow the
changes to go back into the GNU version?  Wouldn't that violate the GPL or
LGPL.  Who did this?


Copyright assignment is an issue separate from the license itself. To the extent that Dave's version is derived from the existing python.el then the GNU GPL still applies to his version of python.el if he distributes it to other people. He is the "owner" of the new code that he has written, so that means if he finds someone that redistributes his code in a manner that is violating the GNU GPL license, then he has the legal standing to pursue that violation in court as the copyright holder. However, no one else has the right to pursue it in court on his behalf; you could bring a case to court, but it would be thrown out in just the same way as if you tried to bring a lawsuit against someone illegally redistributing MS Word; you can't sue someone for that, but Microsoft can if they chose to. The license, whether free or proprietary, can only be enforced in the courts by the copyright holder. 

The issue of enforcement is one of reasons that the GNU project long ago made a requirement that any code contributions accepted back into the code base and officially branded as GNU software must also have any accompanying copyright assignment.

There are other reasons, as well, including protection from patents so that it would prevent someone from contributing source code to the GNU project on one hand, and then on the other hand using patents against the same set of code. You can read that in the language of one of the example copyright assignment forms I've linked to below.

-Aaron

Here is some further reading:

An official statement about why they require copyright assignment:

An example of the copyright assignment form

Excerpt from the above form intended to protect against harm from patents:
   The Assigner hereby agrees that if it has or acquires hereafter any
patent or interface copyright or other intellectual property interest
dominating the program enhanced by the Work (or use of that program), such
dominating interest will not be used to undermine the effect of this
assignment, i.e. the Foundation and the general public will be licensed to
use, in that program and its derivative works, without royalty or
limitation, the subject matter of the dominating interest.  This license
provision will be binding on the assignees of, or other successors to, the
dominating interest, as well as on the Assigner.

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Re: python.el

Barry Warsaw
In reply to this post by Georg Brandl-3
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On Feb 03, 2011, at 10:13 PM, Georg Brandl wrote:

>Would we be able to find all the contributors and get them to sign papers
>for the FSF?  Otherwise there's no need to even think about that step.

At one point in the distant past we *did* that and sent it to the FSF (IIRC,
Tim Peters, Ken M. and myself at the very least).  IMHO, they lost the
paperwork and we've been lax about tracking it ever since getting rebuffed.

But aside from that, I would certainly be willing and able to assign copyright
for my changes.  Again.  I haven't looked at the changelogs in a long time so
I don't know how easy it would be to track everyone else down.  Tim, Ken,
Skip, Andreas, you should all be possible.  I don't know if that's enough.

- -Barry
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Re: python.el

Skip Montanaro-3

    >> Would we be able to find all the contributors and get them to sign
    >> papers for the FSF?  Otherwise there's no need to even think about
    >> that step.

    Barry> At one point in the distant past we *did* that and sent it to the
    Barry> FSF (IIRC, Tim Peters, Ken M. and myself at the very least).
    Barry> IMHO, they lost the paperwork and we've been lax about tracking
    Barry> it ever since getting rebuffed.

I'm pretty sure I wet signed the relevant papers in the dim, dark past,
though probably not specifically for python-mode.  I wouldn't mind repeating
myself on that subject.

Skip
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Re: python.el

Andreas Röhler-2
In reply to this post by Georg Brandl-3
Am 03.02.2011 21:23, schrieb Georg Brandl:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> - From reading emacs-devel, it seems that the python.el has made
> changes to the mode and explicitly taken them out of the copyright
> assignment for the FSF, so Emacs upstream can't include them.
>
> So now we are at three different python modes for Emacs... :|
>
> Georg

Hi Georg,

thanks pointing to it.

However, let me clarify: Emacs _can_ include, as long it is GPL and it is.

And so we can.

It's just to give up the insane copyright-policy, where I see no
legitime reason for, which denigrates the GPL as such.

Andreas

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Re: python.el

Georg Brandl-3
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Am 04.02.2011 09:16, schrieb Andreas Röhler:

> Am 03.02.2011 21:23, schrieb Georg Brandl:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> - From reading emacs-devel, it seems that the python.el has made
>> changes to the mode and explicitly taken them out of the copyright
>> assignment for the FSF, so Emacs upstream can't include them.
>>
>> So now we are at three different python modes for Emacs... :|
>>
>> Georg
>
> Hi Georg,
>
> thanks pointing to it.
>
> However, let me clarify: Emacs _can_ include, as long it is GPL and it is.

Emacs can include what its maintainers think it can include.  And they don't
include anything that's not covered by a copyright assignment.  I don't think
they will change this at any time.

> And so we can.

Of course we can take stuff out of python.el.

> It's just to give up the insane copyright-policy, where I see no
> legitime reason for, which denigrates the GPL as such.

Which policy are you referring to?  If you're referring to Emacs', you'll
have to argue this with RMS.  Good luck :)

Georg
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Re: python.el

Andreas Röhler-2
In reply to this post by Aaron Culich-2
Am 03.02.2011 22:48, schrieb Aaron Culich:

> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 1:13 PM,<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>>
>>     Georg>  - From reading emacs-devel, it seems that the python.el has made
>>     Georg>  changes to the mode and explicitly taken them out of the
>>     Georg>  copyright assignment for the FSF, so Emacs upstream can't include
>>     Georg>  them.
>>
>>     Georg>  So now we are at three different python modes for Emacs... :|
>>
>> I'm not sure I understand.  Someone forked python.el but won't allow the
>> changes to go back into the GNU version?  Wouldn't that violate the GPL or
>> LGPL.  Who did this?
>>
>>
> Copyright assignment is an issue separate from the license itself. To the
> extent that Dave's version is derived from the existing python.el then the
> GNU GPL still applies to his version of python.el if he distributes it to
> other people. He is the "owner" of the new code that he has written, so that
> means if he finds someone that redistributes his code in a manner that is
> violating the GNU GPL license, then he has the legal standing to pursue that
> violation in court as the copyright holder. However, no one else has the
> right to pursue it in court on his behalf; you could bring a case to court,
> but it would be thrown out in just the same way as if you tried to bring a
> lawsuit against someone illegally redistributing MS Word; you can't sue
> someone for that, but Microsoft can if they chose to. The license, whether
> free or proprietary, can only be enforced in the courts by the copyright
> holder.
>
> The issue of enforcement is one of reasons that the GNU project long ago
> made a requirement that any code contributions accepted back into the code
> base and officially branded as GNU software must also have any accompanying
> copyright assignment.
>
> There are other reasons, as well, including protection from patents so that
> it would prevent someone from contributing source code to the GNU project on
> one hand, and then on the other hand using patents against the same set of
> code. You can read that in the language of one of the example copyright
> assignment forms I've linked to below.
>
> -Aaron
>
> Here is some further reading:
>
> An official statement about why they require copyright assignment:
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.html
>
> An example of the copyright assignment form
> http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2002-09/msg00678.html
>
> Excerpt from the above form intended to protect against harm from patents:
>
>>     The Assigner hereby agrees that if it has or acquires hereafter any
>> patent or interface copyright or other intellectual property interest
>> dominating the program enhanced by the Work (or use of that program), such
>> dominating interest will not be used to undermine the effect of this
>> assignment, i.e. the Foundation and the general public will be licensed to
>> use, in that program and its derivative works, without royalty or
>> limitation, the subject matter of the dominating interest.  This license
>> provision will be binding on the assignees of, or other successors to, the
>> dominating interest, as well as on the Assigner.
>>

Hi Aaron,

saw you digged into this only after sending my short statement with
other post.
Sorry for that, would have been more explicit seeing the interest in the
matter.

It is wast one beside.

FSF thinks by making these assignment provisions,
--partly to the extent of the contributors, setting
them on risk rather than the FSF itself-- to do
something good.

Far from that: by raising the level of
specification already it provides uncertainty rather
than certainty.

Let me point at the risks already introduced by GPL in
this globalised world. Any conflict around would
endanger contributors, as being summoned before a
Bostonian court many of them will not be able to pay
  the costs.

 From this perspective GPL already bears a --rather
unspecified-- but potential menace and danger for all
using it.

Decided taking that risk, as you see. But I'm not
willing to take more.

As for copy-rights I'm protected by our domestic laws,
which promess even gratis assistance in certain cases
of conflicts. Why should I give up that protection by
signing up to US-courts?

Andreas

--
https://code.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode/python-mode-components
https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/



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Re: python.el

Andreas Röhler-2
In reply to this post by Georg Brandl-3
[ ... ]

   He must
>> have a big bee in his bonnet.
>

Always being patient with the genial.

Which permits being patient with the common one, including myself.

:-)

Cheers

Andreas
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Re: python.el

Barry Warsaw
In reply to this post by Andreas Röhler-2
On Feb 04, 2011, at 09:16 AM, Andreas Röhler wrote:

>However, let me clarify: Emacs _can_ include, as long it is GPL and it is.

But they won't.

>And so we can.

Yes, we're not bound by the same copyright assignment policy.

>It's just to give up the insane copyright-policy, where I see no legitime
>reason for, which denigrates the GPL as such.

The FSF has their reasons, which I think are legitimate for them.

As much as I wish we could merge all the different versions and get
python-mode.el into GNU Emacs, it may simply be impossible - or not worth the
effort.  Apologies for fanning those old flames again.

-Barry

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Re: python.el

Andreas Röhler-2
Am 04.02.2011 16:30, schrieb Barry Warsaw:

> On Feb 04, 2011, at 09:16 AM, Andreas Röhler wrote:
>
>> However, let me clarify: Emacs _can_ include, as long it is GPL and it is.
>
> But they won't.
>
>> And so we can.
>
> Yes, we're not bound by the same copyright assignment policy.
>
>> It's just to give up the insane copyright-policy, where I see no legitime
>> reason for, which denigrates the GPL as such.
>
> The FSF has their reasons,

Hi Barry,

I'm consenting to that. There is some rationale.

  which I think are legitimate for them.
>
> As much as I wish we could merge all the different versions and get
> python-mode.el into GNU Emacs, it may simply be impossible - or not worth the
> effort.

Policies tend to change. BTW assigned the disclaimer of FSF and there
are some lines by me already in GNU Emacs. So assignment is not an
absolute barrier even now.

:-)

Andreas

   Apologies for fanning those old flames again.
>
> -Barry

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Re: python.el

Eric S. Johansson
On 2/4/2011 12:37 PM, Andreas Röhler wrote:
> Am 04.02.2011 16:30, schrieb Barry Warsaw:
>> On Feb 04, 2011, at 09:16 AM, Andreas Röhler wrote:
>>

oh bloody hell, this is the third time I've seen you guys go around this barn.  
:-)  try something different like merging work with the other other python mode
or be my coding slave...er, minion... ah, friend with editing privileges to help
me make progress on accessibility needs.

in all seriousness, please don't waste any more time on the free software
foundation. I have decided to not support them anymore since Stallman told me
that the needs of free software come before the needs of disabled people.

---eric
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Re: python.el

Skip Montanaro-3

    Eric> in all seriousness, please don't waste any more time on the free
    Eric> software foundation. I have decided to not support them anymore
    Eric> since Stallman told me that the needs of free software come before
    Eric> the needs of disabled people.

+1.

S

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