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the health of Jython

Mike Rodent
I love Jython ... and I think you people who develop it are geniuses.

But just looking at the archives for this mailing list tells its own story.  In the early years you see hundreds of posts a month sometimes... in the whole of March this year there was precisely ONE post.

As I understand it, Jython was quite actively developed in its early years, and then went a bit quiet, but is now getting developed quite actively (no doubt Jython 3 will provoke some more interest).  And yet there is nothing but this mailing list to pose questions, etc.

Does no-one here think that a mailing list as the centre of the Jython community is slightly anachronistic in 2016?  Wouldn't a simple forum tend to encourage new users to sniff out the power of the language?

The goodness of Jython should be evangelised!  Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?

Just a thought!
Mike


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Re: the health of Jython

Stefan Richthofer
Hello Mike,
 
completely agree with you in most points. Mainly I'd like to hint to the  https://wiki.python.org/jython/IrcChannel as an alternative for posting questions.
While not very active, it is at least rather responsive (usually within some hours or so).
I think a keypoint would be to bring the homepage and Wiki up to date. E.g. I once experienced it hard to find setup instructions to get pip etc running, install modules for Jython, including clarification how or how not this interfers with a CPython installation or modules installed via a package manager in Linux. Often enough such stuff is only implicitly documented via stackoverflow or so. There are rumors a new homepage is upcoming via github pages, but I don't know about an official statement.
Also the delay of Jython 2.7.1 isn't exactly beneficious for the issues you mention I guess.
It appears all in all this boils down to a lack of manpower for maintaining Jython. But I agree that maybe organization structures could actually be more friendly for contributing to the wiki or homepage and other documentation. We should definitely think this over!
 
> Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
A good starting point on this front would be an up-to-date getting-started-tutorial for Jython, including Java integration-hints. Maybe such a thing already exists somewhere (hints?), but I usually found such information rather spread over various places. Jython-book is usually the best source of information, but is also outdated and not exactly a tutorial. We would need something that covers Jython 2.7.
 
So much for now. Have a nice weekend!
 
-Stefan
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. September 2016 um 20:48 Uhr
Von: "Mike Rodent" <[hidden email]>
An: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: [Jython-users] the health of Jython
I love Jython ... and I think you people who develop it are geniuses.
 
But just looking at the archives for this mailing list tells its own story.  In the early years you see hundreds of posts a month sometimes... in the whole of March this year there was precisely ONE post.
 
As I understand it, Jython was quite actively developed in its early years, and then went a bit quiet, but is now getting developed quite actively (no doubt Jython 3 will provoke some more interest).  And yet there is nothing but this mailing list to pose questions, etc.
 
Does no-one here think that a mailing list as the centre of the Jython community is slightly anachronistic in 2016?  Wouldn't a simple forum tend to encourage new users to sniff out the power of the language?
 
The goodness of Jython should be evangelised!  Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
 
Just a thought!
Mike
 
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Re: the health of Jython

Curtis Rueden
Hi everyone,

From my naive outsider perspective, the #1 thing that would invigorate the Jython project is the ability to seamless use modules from the CPython world. If JyNI (http://jyni.org/) can fulfill this promise, many more people in the scientific community and beyond could then combine the JVM with powerful Python libraries like numpy, scipy and skimage. For me personally, this would alleviate a lot of the stress of continually needing to "choose a side" when developing tech for scientists.

As for mailing lists + IRC vs. forums, I agree that mailing lists are dated, and not really welcoming to new members of the tech community. A mailing list basically says "this project has been around for a long time -- it is the way it is, and if you don't like it, use something else." My community (http://imagej.net/) recently transitioned support for our whole OSS software stack from mailing lists + IRC over to Discourse + Gitter, and the results have been astoundingly successful. I hated forum software for many years, but would wholeheartedly recommend Discourse, which is a quantum leap forward in both civil discussion and usability.

Regards,
Curtis

--
Curtis Rueden
LOCI software architect - http://loci.wisc.edu/software
ImageJ2 lead, Fiji maintainer - http://imagej.net/User:Rueden
Did you know ImageJ has a forum? http://forum.imagej.net/


On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 6:53 AM, Stefan Richthofer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Mike,
 
completely agree with you in most points. Mainly I'd like to hint to the  https://wiki.python.org/jython/IrcChannel as an alternative for posting questions.
While not very active, it is at least rather responsive (usually within some hours or so).
I think a keypoint would be to bring the homepage and Wiki up to date. E.g. I once experienced it hard to find setup instructions to get pip etc running, install modules for Jython, including clarification how or how not this interfers with a CPython installation or modules installed via a package manager in Linux. Often enough such stuff is only implicitly documented via stackoverflow or so. There are rumors a new homepage is upcoming via github pages, but I don't know about an official statement.
Also the delay of Jython 2.7.1 isn't exactly beneficious for the issues you mention I guess.
It appears all in all this boils down to a lack of manpower for maintaining Jython. But I agree that maybe organization structures could actually be more friendly for contributing to the wiki or homepage and other documentation. We should definitely think this over!
 
> Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
A good starting point on this front would be an up-to-date getting-started-tutorial for Jython, including Java integration-hints. Maybe such a thing already exists somewhere (hints?), but I usually found such information rather spread over various places. Jython-book is usually the best source of information, but is also outdated and not exactly a tutorial. We would need something that covers Jython 2.7.
 
So much for now. Have a nice weekend!
 
-Stefan
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. September 2016 um 20:48 Uhr
Von: "Mike Rodent" <[hidden email]>
An: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: [Jython-users] the health of Jython
I love Jython ... and I think you people who develop it are geniuses.
 
But just looking at the archives for this mailing list tells its own story.  In the early years you see hundreds of posts a month sometimes... in the whole of March this year there was precisely ONE post.
 
As I understand it, Jython was quite actively developed in its early years, and then went a bit quiet, but is now getting developed quite actively (no doubt Jython 3 will provoke some more interest).  And yet there is nothing but this mailing list to pose questions, etc.
 
Does no-one here think that a mailing list as the centre of the Jython community is slightly anachronistic in 2016?  Wouldn't a simple forum tend to encourage new users to sniff out the power of the language?
 
The goodness of Jython should be evangelised!  Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
 
Just a thought!
Mike
 
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Re: the health of Jython

Guzdial, Mark
In reply to this post by Stefan Richthofer

> Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?


Actually, many of the students at University who are learning Python are actually learning Jython.  The textbook that Barbara Ericson and I wrote uses Jython: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Computing-Programming-Python-4th/dp/0134025547.  Last I saw market analysis, it's the third most popular Python University textbook, at least in the US.  If you read the reviews for the book, you'll see that lots of people are confused about Jython vs. Python.  Quoting one:


This book is a prescribed text for a course: that's the only reason to buy it. Its biggest problem: false advertising. This is NOT a book on Python, it's about JYTHON - A Java based imitation of Python.
Why? Well, there's some pretty software, available to download, which uses the the JRE. The author chose to stick with this "easy learning environment" and basically cripple anyone wanting to write Python code for Blender, Maya, Android etc.

You may learn to program from this text, but don't expect a trouble-free life when you get exposed to the real language.

The IDE that we wrote for the book, JES, is all Jython, and has been used by thousands of students for over a decade now: See http://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/205801-14-years-of-a-learner-centered-python-ide/fulltext


- Mark


From: Stefan Richthofer <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 9:53:28 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Jython-users] the health of Jython
 
Hello Mike,
 
completely agree with you in most points. Mainly I'd like to hint to the  https://wiki.python.org/jython/IrcChannel as an alternative for posting questions.
While not very active, it is at least rather responsive (usually within some hours or so).
I think a keypoint would be to bring the homepage and Wiki up to date. E.g. I once experienced it hard to find setup instructions to get pip etc running, install modules for Jython, including clarification how or how not this interfers with a CPython installation or modules installed via a package manager in Linux. Often enough such stuff is only implicitly documented via stackoverflow or so. There are rumors a new homepage is upcoming via github pages, but I don't know about an official statement.
Also the delay of Jython 2.7.1 isn't exactly beneficious for the issues you mention I guess.
It appears all in all this boils down to a lack of manpower for maintaining Jython. But I agree that maybe organization structures could actually be more friendly for contributing to the wiki or homepage and other documentation. We should definitely think this over!
 
> Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
A good starting point on this front would be an up-to-date getting-started-tutorial for Jython, including Java integration-hints. Maybe such a thing already exists somewhere (hints?), but I usually found such information rather spread over various places. Jython-book is usually the best source of information, but is also outdated and not exactly a tutorial. We would need something that covers Jython 2.7.
 
So much for now. Have a nice weekend!
 
-Stefan
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. September 2016 um 20:48 Uhr
Von: "Mike Rodent" <[hidden email]>
An: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: [Jython-users] the health of Jython
I love Jython ... and I think you people who develop it are geniuses.
 
But just looking at the archives for this mailing list tells its own story.  In the early years you see hundreds of posts a month sometimes... in the whole of March this year there was precisely ONE post.
 
As I understand it, Jython was quite actively developed in its early years, and then went a bit quiet, but is now getting developed quite actively (no doubt Jython 3 will provoke some more interest).  And yet there is nothing but this mailing list to pose questions, etc.
 
Does no-one here think that a mailing list as the centre of the Jython community is slightly anachronistic in 2016?  Wouldn't a simple forum tend to encourage new users to sniff out the power of the language?
 
The goodness of Jython should be evangelised!  Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
 
Just a thought!
Mike
 
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Re: the health of Jython

Michael Chisholm
On 9/16/2016 1:13 PM, Guzdial, Mark wrote:

>> Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
>
>
> Actually, many of the students at University who are learning Python are actually learning Jython.  The textbook that Barbara Ericson and I wrote uses Jython: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Computing-Programming-Python-4th/dp/0134025547.  Last I saw market analysis, it's the third most popular Python University textbook, at least in the US.  If you read the reviews for the book, you'll see that lots of people are confused about Jython vs. Python.  Quoting one:
>
>
> This book is a prescribed text for a course: that's the only reason to buy it. Its biggest problem: false advertising. This is NOT a book on Python, it's about JYTHON - A Java based imitation of Python.
> Why? Well, there's some pretty software, available to download, which uses the the JRE. The author chose to stick with this "easy learning environment" and basically cripple anyone wanting to write Python code for Blender, Maya, Android etc.
>
> You may learn to program from this text, but don't expect a trouble-free life when you get exposed to the real language.
>
>
> The IDE that we wrote for the book, JES, is all Jython, and has been used by thousands of students for over a decade now: See http://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/205801-14-years-of-a-learner-centered-python-ide/fulltext
>

So I'll just ask the obvious: CPython and Jython are supposed to be
alternative implementations of the same language, Python.  IronPython is
another.  How does a different implementation imply a different language?

Andy



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Re: the health of Jython

Adam Burke-2
It doesn't, of course - it looks like a  reaction from a beginner who hasn't learnt to contextually separate a language from the platform surrounding it.

It might speak to the need for clearer doco entry points, though. The dominance (and usefulness) of stackoverflow for new programmers is also interesting. Because the foundation of jython predates it, there's not as much of a community around Jython there, that I've seen.

We made the wiki closed to anon edits because of nasty spam problems, but contributors are very welcome - just ask on this mailing list.

Adam

> 在 17 Sep 2016,8:32 AM,Michael Chisholm <[hidden email]> 写道:
>
> On 9/16/2016 1:13 PM, Guzdial, Mark wrote:
>>> Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
>>
>>
>> Actually, many of the students at University who are learning Python are actually learning Jython.  The textbook that Barbara Ericson and I wrote uses Jython: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Computing-Programming-Python-4th/dp/0134025547.  Last I saw market analysis, it's the third most popular Python University textbook, at least in the US.  If you read the reviews for the book, you'll see that lots of people are confused about Jython vs. Python.  Quoting one:
>>
>>
>> This book is a prescribed text for a course: that's the only reason to buy it. Its biggest problem: false advertising. This is NOT a book on Python, it's about JYTHON - A Java based imitation of Python.
>> Why? Well, there's some pretty software, available to download, which uses the the JRE. The author chose to stick with this "easy learning environment" and basically cripple anyone wanting to write Python code for Blender, Maya, Android etc.
>>
>> You may learn to program from this text, but don't expect a trouble-free life when you get exposed to the real language.
>>
>>
>> The IDE that we wrote for the book, JES, is all Jython, and has been used by thousands of students for over a decade now: See http://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/205801-14-years-of-a-learner-centered-python-ide/fulltext
>
> So I'll just ask the obvious: CPython and Jython are supposed to be
> alternative implementations of the same language, Python.  IronPython is
> another.  How does a different implementation imply a different language?
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Jython-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users

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Re: the health of Jython

Jon Christopher
I love jython and use it frequently, and have over 3 decades of programming experience----so not quite a newbie.

Jython works like magic for the most part but the integration is so slick sometimes I forget which platform I'm on.  The Java objects start looking like python objects and vice versa (which is the whole point, after all), but it can be a bit confusing---even though it all just works.

So...I'm willing to cut the newbies some slack on their confusion here.

-Jon


On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Adam Burke <[hidden email]> wrote:
It doesn't, of course - it looks like a  reaction from a beginner who hasn't learnt to contextually separate a language from the platform surrounding it.

It might speak to the need for clearer doco entry points, though. The dominance (and usefulness) of stackoverflow for new programmers is also interesting. Because the foundation of jython predates it, there's not as much of a community around Jython there, that I've seen.

We made the wiki closed to anon edits because of nasty spam problems, but contributors are very welcome - just ask on this mailing list.

Adam

> 在 17 Sep 2016,8:32 AM,Michael Chisholm <[hidden email]> 写道:
>
> On 9/16/2016 1:13 PM, Guzdial, Mark wrote:
>>> Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
>>
>>
>> Actually, many of the students at University who are learning Python are actually learning Jython.  The textbook that Barbara Ericson and I wrote uses Jython: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Computing-Programming-Python-4th/dp/0134025547.  Last I saw market analysis, it's the third most popular Python University textbook, at least in the US.  If you read the reviews for the book, you'll see that lots of people are confused about Jython vs. Python.  Quoting one:
>>
>>
>> This book is a prescribed text for a course: that's the only reason to buy it. Its biggest problem: false advertising. This is NOT a book on Python, it's about JYTHON - A Java based imitation of Python.
>> Why? Well, there's some pretty software, available to download, which uses the the JRE. The author chose to stick with this "easy learning environment" and basically cripple anyone wanting to write Python code for Blender, Maya, Android etc.
>>
>> You may learn to program from this text, but don't expect a trouble-free life when you get exposed to the real language.
>>
>>
>> The IDE that we wrote for the book, JES, is all Jython, and has been used by thousands of students for over a decade now: See http://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/205801-14-years-of-a-learner-centered-python-ide/fulltext
>
> So I'll just ask the obvious: CPython and Jython are supposed to be
> alternative implementations of the same language, Python.  IronPython is
> another.  How does a different implementation imply a different language?
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Jython-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users

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Re: the health of Jython

Matt Rutherford

I'd be interested in hearing the various use cases people have for python that made them opt for 'both' as opposed to purely python or Java?


On 17 Sep 2016 2:42 a.m., "Jon Christopher" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I love jython and use it frequently, and have over 3 decades of programming experience----so not quite a newbie.

Jython works like magic for the most part but the integration is so slick sometimes I forget which platform I'm on.  The Java objects start looking like python objects and vice versa (which is the whole point, after all), but it can be a bit confusing---even though it all just works.

So...I'm willing to cut the newbies some slack on their confusion here.

-Jon


On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Adam Burke <[hidden email]> wrote:
It doesn't, of course - it looks like a  reaction from a beginner who hasn't learnt to contextually separate a language from the platform surrounding it.

It might speak to the need for clearer doco entry points, though. The dominance (and usefulness) of stackoverflow for new programmers is also interesting. Because the foundation of jython predates it, there's not as much of a community around Jython there, that I've seen.

We made the wiki closed to anon edits because of nasty spam problems, but contributors are very welcome - just ask on this mailing list.

Adam

> 在 17 Sep 2016,8:32 AM,Michael Chisholm <[hidden email]> 写道:
>
> On 9/16/2016 1:13 PM, Guzdial, Mark wrote:
>>> Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
>>
>>
>> Actually, many of the students at University who are learning Python are actually learning Jython.  The textbook that Barbara Ericson and I wrote uses Jython: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Computing-Programming-Python-4th/dp/0134025547.  Last I saw market analysis, it's the third most popular Python University textbook, at least in the US.  If you read the reviews for the book, you'll see that lots of people are confused about Jython vs. Python.  Quoting one:
>>
>>
>> This book is a prescribed text for a course: that's the only reason to buy it. Its biggest problem: false advertising. This is NOT a book on Python, it's about JYTHON - A Java based imitation of Python.
>> Why? Well, there's some pretty software, available to download, which uses the the JRE. The author chose to stick with this "easy learning environment" and basically cripple anyone wanting to write Python code for Blender, Maya, Android etc.
>>
>> You may learn to program from this text, but don't expect a trouble-free life when you get exposed to the real language.
>>
>>
>> The IDE that we wrote for the book, JES, is all Jython, and has been used by thousands of students for over a decade now: See http://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/205801-14-years-of-a-learner-centered-python-ide/fulltext
>
> So I'll just ask the obvious: CPython and Jython are supposed to be
> alternative implementations of the same language, Python.  IronPython is
> another.  How does a different implementation imply a different language?
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Jython-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users

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Re: the health of Jython

Mike Rodent
In reply to this post by Guzdial, Mark
(hopefully this a reply to Mark G in thread?)

... interesting.  Yes, I can see how one might feel short-changed if a CPython devotee and a Java-hater.

The slow startup time for Jython runs (to which I alluded in my second post a couple of days ago) will no doubt be giving generations of such students a bad image of Jython.  As a Jython author have you ever tried to tackle this aspect (e.g. by Nailgun)?

Mike



From: "Guzdial, Mark" <[hidden email]>
To: Stefan Richthofer <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016, 18:13
Subject: Re: [Jython-users] the health of Jython

> Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?

Actually, many of the students at University who are learning Python are actually learning Jython.  The textbook that Barbara Ericson and I wrote uses Jython: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Computing-Programming-Python-4th/dp/0134025547.  Last I saw market analysis, it's the third most popular Python University textbook, at least in the US.  If you read the reviews for the book, you'll see that lots of people are confused about Jython vs. Python.  Quoting one:

This book is a prescribed text for a course: that's the only reason to buy it. Its biggest problem: false advertising. This is NOT a book on Python, it's about JYTHON - A Java based imitation of Python.
Why? Well, there's some pretty software, available to download, which uses the the JRE. The author chose to stick with this "easy learning environment" and basically cripple anyone wanting to write Python code for Blender, Maya, Android etc.

You may learn to program from this text, but don't expect a trouble-free life when you get exposed to the real language.

The IDE that we wrote for the book, JES, is all Jython, and has been used by thousands of students for over a decade now: See http://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/205801-14-years-of-a-learner-centered-python-ide/fulltext

- Mark

From: Stefan Richthofer <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 9:53:28 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Jython-users] the health of Jython
 
Hello Mike,
 
completely agree with you in most points. Mainly I'd like to hint to the  https://wiki.python.org/jython/IrcChannel as an alternative for posting questions.
While not very active, it is at least rather responsive (usually within some hours or so).
I think a keypoint would be to bring the homepage and Wiki up to date. E.g. I once experienced it hard to find setup instructions to get pip etc running, install modules for Jython, including clarification how or how not this interfers with a CPython installation or modules installed via a package manager in Linux. Often enough such stuff is only implicitly documented via stackoverflow or so. There are rumors a new homepage is upcoming via github pages, but I don't know about an official statement.
Also the delay of Jython 2.7.1 isn't exactly beneficious for the issues you mention I guess.
It appears all in all this boils down to a lack of manpower for maintaining Jython. But I agree that maybe organization structures could actually be more friendly for contributing to the wiki or homepage and other documentation. We should definitely think this over!
 
> Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
A good starting point on this front would be an up-to-date getting-started-tutorial for Jython, including Java integration-hints. Maybe such a thing already exists somewhere (hints?), but I usually found such information rather spread over various places. Jython-book is usually the best source of information, but is also outdated and not exactly a tutorial. We would need something that covers Jython 2.7.
 
So much for now. Have a nice weekend!
 
-Stefan
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. September 2016 um 20:48 Uhr
Von: "Mike Rodent" <[hidden email]>
An: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: [Jython-users] the health of Jython
I love Jython ... and I think you people who develop it are geniuses.
 
But just looking at the archives for this mailing list tells its own story.  In the early years you see hundreds of posts a month sometimes... in the whole of March this year there was precisely ONE post.
 
As I understand it, Jython was quite actively developed in its early years, and then went a bit quiet, but is now getting developed quite actively (no doubt Jython 3 will provoke some more interest).  And yet there is nothing but this mailing list to pose questions, etc.
 
Does no-one here think that a mailing list as the centre of the Jython community is slightly anachronistic in 2016?  Wouldn't a simple forum tend to encourage new users to sniff out the power of the language?
 
The goodness of Jython should be evangelised!  Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
 
Just a thought!
Mike
 
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Re: the health of Jython

Adam Burke-2
In reply to this post by Matt Rutherford
We use it this way, but in different apps. A django web app which is CPython and BDD testing for Java applications using Robot + Jython.

Adam

在 17 Sep 2016,3:03 PM,Matt Rutherford <[hidden email]> 写道:

I'd be interested in hearing the various use cases people have for python that made them opt for 'both' as opposed to purely python or Java?


On 17 Sep 2016 2:42 a.m., "Jon Christopher" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I love jython and use it frequently, and have over 3 decades of programming experience----so not quite a newbie.

Jython works like magic for the most part but the integration is so slick sometimes I forget which platform I'm on.  The Java objects start looking like python objects and vice versa (which is the whole point, after all), but it can be a bit confusing---even though it all just works.

So...I'm willing to cut the newbies some slack on their confusion here.

-Jon


On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Adam Burke <[hidden email]> wrote:
It doesn't, of course - it looks like a  reaction from a beginner who hasn't learnt to contextually separate a language from the platform surrounding it.

It might speak to the need for clearer doco entry points, though. The dominance (and usefulness) of stackoverflow for new programmers is also interesting. Because the foundation of jython predates it, there's not as much of a community around Jython there, that I've seen.

We made the wiki closed to anon edits because of nasty spam problems, but contributors are very welcome - just ask on this mailing list.

Adam

> 在 17 Sep 2016,8:32 AM,Michael Chisholm <[hidden email]> 写道:
>
> On 9/16/2016 1:13 PM, Guzdial, Mark wrote:
>>> Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
>>
>>
>> Actually, many of the students at University who are learning Python are actually learning Jython.  The textbook that Barbara Ericson and I wrote uses Jython: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Computing-Programming-Python-4th/dp/0134025547.  Last I saw market analysis, it's the third most popular Python University textbook, at least in the US.  If you read the reviews for the book, you'll see that lots of people are confused about Jython vs. Python.  Quoting one:
>>
>>
>> This book is a prescribed text for a course: that's the only reason to buy it. Its biggest problem: false advertising. This is NOT a book on Python, it's about JYTHON - A Java based imitation of Python.
>> Why? Well, there's some pretty software, available to download, which uses the the JRE. The author chose to stick with this "easy learning environment" and basically cripple anyone wanting to write Python code for Blender, Maya, Android etc.
>>
>> You may learn to program from this text, but don't expect a trouble-free life when you get exposed to the real language.
>>
>>
>> The IDE that we wrote for the book, JES, is all Jython, and has been used by thousands of students for over a decade now: See http://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/205801-14-years-of-a-learner-centered-python-ide/fulltext
>
> So I'll just ask the obvious: CPython and Jython are supposed to be
> alternative implementations of the same language, Python.  IronPython is
> another.  How does a different implementation imply a different language?
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: the health of Jython

Adam Burke-2
In reply to this post by Jon Christopher
: )

Sure, I guess that's true, I have fallen into this uncanny valley as well. I have also been pleasantly surprised when something I didn't expect to work (eg network library support) just did, because the underlying work of reimplementing using the Java standard libraries.

Adam

在 17 Sep 2016,9:40 AM,Jon Christopher <[hidden email]> 写道:

I love jython and use it frequently, and have over 3 decades of programming experience----so not quite a newbie.

Jython works like magic for the most part but the integration is so slick sometimes I forget which platform I'm on.  The Java objects start looking like python objects and vice versa (which is the whole point, after all), but it can be a bit confusing---even though it all just works.

So...I'm willing to cut the newbies some slack on their confusion here.

-Jon


On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Adam Burke <[hidden email]> wrote:
It doesn't, of course - it looks like a  reaction from a beginner who hasn't learnt to contextually separate a language from the platform surrounding it.

It might speak to the need for clearer doco entry points, though. The dominance (and usefulness) of stackoverflow for new programmers is also interesting. Because the foundation of jython predates it, there's not as much of a community around Jython there, that I've seen.

We made the wiki closed to anon edits because of nasty spam problems, but contributors are very welcome - just ask on this mailing list.

Adam

> 在 17 Sep 2016,8:32 AM,Michael Chisholm <[hidden email]> 写道:
>
> On 9/16/2016 1:13 PM, Guzdial, Mark wrote:
>>> Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
>>
>>
>> Actually, many of the students at University who are learning Python are actually learning Jython.  The textbook that Barbara Ericson and I wrote uses Jython: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Computing-Programming-Python-4th/dp/0134025547.  Last I saw market analysis, it's the third most popular Python University textbook, at least in the US.  If you read the reviews for the book, you'll see that lots of people are confused about Jython vs. Python.  Quoting one:
>>
>>
>> This book is a prescribed text for a course: that's the only reason to buy it. Its biggest problem: false advertising. This is NOT a book on Python, it's about JYTHON - A Java based imitation of Python.
>> Why? Well, there's some pretty software, available to download, which uses the the JRE. The author chose to stick with this "easy learning environment" and basically cripple anyone wanting to write Python code for Blender, Maya, Android etc.
>>
>> You may learn to program from this text, but don't expect a trouble-free life when you get exposed to the real language.
>>
>>
>> The IDE that we wrote for the book, JES, is all Jython, and has been used by thousands of students for over a decade now: See http://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/205801-14-years-of-a-learner-centered-python-ide/fulltext
>
> So I'll just ask the obvious: CPython and Jython are supposed to be
> alternative implementations of the same language, Python.  IronPython is
> another.  How does a different implementation imply a different language?
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Jython-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users

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Re: the health of Jython

Matt Rutherford
In reply to this post by Adam Burke-2

I also implemented this stack for my work's automated test runs, but with python robot. I have noticed though the robot python packages running exceptionally slow on (aws) centos. I wanted to know if others ever encountered such an issue?


On 19 Sep 2016 12:48 a.m., "Adam Burke" <[hidden email]> wrote:
We use it this way, but in different apps. A django web app which is CPython and BDD testing for Java applications using Robot + Jython.

Adam

在 17 Sep 2016,3:03 PM,Matt Rutherford <[hidden email]> 写道:

I'd be interested in hearing the various use cases people have for python that made them opt for 'both' as opposed to purely python or Java?


On 17 Sep 2016 2:42 a.m., "Jon Christopher" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I love jython and use it frequently, and have over 3 decades of programming experience----so not quite a newbie.

Jython works like magic for the most part but the integration is so slick sometimes I forget which platform I'm on.  The Java objects start looking like python objects and vice versa (which is the whole point, after all), but it can be a bit confusing---even though it all just works.

So...I'm willing to cut the newbies some slack on their confusion here.

-Jon


On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Adam Burke <[hidden email]> wrote:
It doesn't, of course - it looks like a  reaction from a beginner who hasn't learnt to contextually separate a language from the platform surrounding it.

It might speak to the need for clearer doco entry points, though. The dominance (and usefulness) of stackoverflow for new programmers is also interesting. Because the foundation of jython predates it, there's not as much of a community around Jython there, that I've seen.

We made the wiki closed to anon edits because of nasty spam problems, but contributors are very welcome - just ask on this mailing list.

Adam

> 在 17 Sep 2016,8:32 AM,Michael Chisholm <[hidden email]> 写道:
>
> On 9/16/2016 1:13 PM, Guzdial, Mark wrote:
>>> Apparently a lot of new programmers are being introduced to programming through CPython ... shouldn't the poor kids be learning Jython instead?
>>
>>
>> Actually, many of the students at University who are learning Python are actually learning Jython.  The textbook that Barbara Ericson and I wrote uses Jython: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Computing-Programming-Python-4th/dp/0134025547.  Last I saw market analysis, it's the third most popular Python University textbook, at least in the US.  If you read the reviews for the book, you'll see that lots of people are confused about Jython vs. Python.  Quoting one:
>>
>>
>> This book is a prescribed text for a course: that's the only reason to buy it. Its biggest problem: false advertising. This is NOT a book on Python, it's about JYTHON - A Java based imitation of Python.
>> Why? Well, there's some pretty software, available to download, which uses the the JRE. The author chose to stick with this "easy learning environment" and basically cripple anyone wanting to write Python code for Blender, Maya, Android etc.
>>
>> You may learn to program from this text, but don't expect a trouble-free life when you get exposed to the real language.
>>
>>
>> The IDE that we wrote for the book, JES, is all Jython, and has been used by thousands of students for over a decade now: See http://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/205801-14-years-of-a-learner-centered-python-ide/fulltext
>
> So I'll just ask the obvious: CPython and Jython are supposed to be
> alternative implementations of the same language, Python.  IronPython is
> another.  How does a different implementation imply a different language?
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Jython-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users

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